Overcoming Fear and Addiction, and Embracing Change: A Conversation with Matt Beisner

I had the pleasure of chatting with Matt Beisner, founder of The Zen Dog and the star of Dog Impossible on Disney Plus, about his inspirational journey overcoming fear, addiction, and even cancel culture and how his dogs have supported and guided him along the way.  We also discuss how dog training has evolved, moving away from outdated, conventional methods to focus on living with our dogs and understanding their needs and emotional wellbeing. He also shares with me his personal story of the loss of his beloved canine soulmate Renge. Matt's incredible story of transformation is a testament to the powerful bond between humans and animals and how it can change our lives for the better.

Useful Links:
http://www.thezendog.com/
https://www.instagram.com/matt_beisner/

Pet Loss Psychologist - https://www.instagram.com/petlosspsychologist/?hl=en
Senior Dog Doc -  https://www.instagram.com/seniordogdoc/
Dr. Lisa Lippman - https://www.instagram.com/drlisalippman/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Dogs make the best companions for humans. This podcast aims to help make humans better companions for their dogs. Welcome to the Baroo Podcast, a modern lifestyle podcast for dogs and their people. I'm your host, charlotte Bain. I've been caring for other people's dogs for more than 15 years And, while I've learned a lot in my career, i definitely don't know at all. So I've collected an ever-evolving roster of amazing dog people And I learn new things from them all the time. Hi you guys. Thank you so much for joining me for another episode of the Baroo Podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:49

In today's chat, renowned dog trainer Matt Beisner, star of Dog Impossible on Disney Plus, joins me to share his journey, overcoming fear, addiction and even cancel culture, and now his dogs have supported and guided him all along the way. We also discussed how dog training has evolved, moving away from outdated conventional methods more towards focusing on living with our dogs and understanding their needs and their emotional well-being. He also shares with me his personal story of loss of his beloved canine soulmate, or soul dog as I like to call it, mange. So let's jump into the chat. Get started. I know you were just in.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Los Angeles, were you not? Yeah, yeah, what were you doing back here? I'm not in LA About every four to six weeks, working in person with people.

Speaker 1: 1:44

Okay, okay, okay. So pleased that you jumped on to chat with me today. I really appreciate this and I first off want to would love for you to kind of share your journey into becoming a dog trainer with us, because your story really is really special and it speaks to the human animal bond and how the relationship that we have with our pets really have the potential to kind of guide us and change our lives for the better, and I think that your story is a really special version of that. I have a version of how my dog changed my life. You know, like you really just kind of came in at a time magically that I really needed help and guidance, and so I think it's a common theme, especially with those of us who end up working with dogs. I would love for you to share, if you'd like to share, your journey on becoming a dog trainer and how your dogs really kind of shaped that process for you.

Speaker 2: 2:49

Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on the podcast and to talk, really to give credit words, due to the dogs and the people that changed and saved my life. I was afraid of dogs. Well, actually, i love dogs. As a child, i love dogs. And then it was Halloween and I was trick-or-treating. I was probably seven at the oldest And I was trick-or-treating and it was nighttime And I was with my parents and we were approaching a man. So we were back lit. We were approaching a man. A house that was the porch was lit and the man was standing next to his German Shepherd and the German Shepherd was barking and wagging its tail. And so I had a little. I had a, was wearing a mask, i had a little plastic pumpkin bucket for candy And I approached. All of the adults said he's wagging its tail. That means that he's happy.

Speaker 1: 3:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:58

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:59

So I leave the dramatic pause for a reason. So I reached out and I think you know, in hindsight, one of the things that stands out to me if I flash back to that moment is that I felt scared. So I and I don't think anybody, i nobody was trying to do harm by me, but but the adults in the room knew what, they knew to the extent that they knew it, and they unintentionally set me up to get bit And that's what happened And I was not in a place, you know in my childhood experience, where where I was encouraged to acknowledge my feelings, let alone talk about them. So it wouldn't have occurred to me to say I, i'm scared, And that's important for a number of reasons in terms of how we live with dogs, how we support families with dogs, children with dogs, dogs in general. So I reached out and and went for the bucket, i went for the candy and the dog lunged and bit me right in the crook of my arm, where the elbow, where the elbow bends, and it was a serious puncture. And then I was afraid And I and hindsight I recognized that, that my, my experience, that I couldn't really quantify at the time, was that I had been my broke, my heart because dogs were a safe place for me at a time in my life where there weren't too many safe places, and also that the that the adults had betrayed me.

Speaker 2: 5:40

Now, that's not actually what they were doing, but that was my experience. So I spent the rest of my. I spent another couple of decades afraid of dogs and not telling anybody I was afraid of dogs. That was another thing. That wasn't a. That wasn't something that one would say. It certainly wasn't something that somebody who thought it meant that being a man meant you didn't talk about being afraid would say. So I stuck with that fear and navigated all kinds of things around it And then I ended up.

Speaker 2: 6:16

I ended up having a really serious drinking. I'm trying, i'm hedging. I don't know why I'm hedging, but I'm trying to work around it. I think part of it is today is the today actually happens to be the anniversary of a family member's passing that that actually, oh boy, this is fortuitous. So I'll tell the story and this will make more sense. So I ended up having a really serious alcohol and drug problem And the final blow for that was that my younger brother, whose anniversary of his passing is today, my younger brother passed away on his motorcycle And that was the beginning of the end for me And I, before I got sober, i inherited his car and one night in a blackout, i was driving his car and I hit somebody on a motorcycle.

Speaker 2: 7:18

That person did not die He and his girlfriend to my understanding, through my lawyer, who reached out to them at the time or after the fact, they were both okay, but the parallel was not lost on me And I sat in that. I sat in my car. It was I don't know four o'clock on a Monday morning in LA, in a, you know, in a place where a big club was. So there was no action, there was nobody around and I just sat there waiting for the cops to arrive Because I knew I was done. So from that place I got, i began to get the help that I needed, the help that has allowed me to continue to stay clean and sober to this day, and about two months into my recovery, i did exactly what one is not supposed to do, and that is, a getting a relationship and B moving with them.

Speaker 2: 8:14

So it's fair to say that I'm a slow learner, or that I'm stubborn at least And I moved in with my then girlfriend and she had a little terrier that she had rescued and the terrier was a puppy and terriers they have big feelings and this dog was a rescue and it had who knows what experience. but that dog was called aggressive And I'm putting that in quotes for your listeners because there's a lot more to the understanding of how we approach dogs and how we unintentionally create bias and prejudice around them. So at the time we would have said that dog's aggressive And then, you know, as our language evolves we might say well, the dog has aggressive behavior. but even that now I will put in quotes because we do all kinds of things with unmet feelings and unmet needs. So anyway, there was a dog who was considered to be aggressive, kingston. there was a guy who was detoxing in me, who was living, who was afraid of dogs, and it's not a really good way to detox If anybody's going to choose that route. you know, good luck.

Speaker 2: 9:29

That was my route. The short of it is that I started, he got me out of the house and he got me out of myself and I was spending time with him outside watching the world and walking, and I didn't know anything, certainly didn't know anything about dog training. I knew next to nothing about dogs, but there we were. So, as time went on, i saw a TV show like a lot of people I would watch. You know I've watched. I was watching a dog training TV show and I thought, well, i'm going to try some of this stuff And I don't try any of those things anymore because they're not. Actually, most of what one might see on television is not humane, and that includes things that I have done in some of my work and in the beginning of my work on television. So, that being said, what I do want to highlight is that the episode that I saw on television was about a grown man who was getting help getting over his fear of dogs, and the reason why I want to point that out is when I don't think we talk about fear of dogs enough. I don't think we talk about adults who are afraid of dogs enough, and I have been in too many hairy situations no pun intended where children are not being protected and heard. Where it comes to dogs, no-transcript. And most of the people in the US and worldwide are not actually going to hire a professional trainer. They're going to get the information where it's easy, where it's easy and where it is compelling. So television is built to be compelling so it can sell. Right, the entire internet matrix is built to be compelling so it can sell. Which means if I'm a learner who can't afford to or doesn't want to spend the time or for whatever reason, i am not reaching out to an educated, certified human trainer. If I'm not doing that, i'm in the vast majority of dog people in the world and I'm just going to be able to pick and choose and pull off of what's available.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Part of why I'm segueing on that is that I think as professionals we have a responsibility. I have a responsibility, certainly, as somebody who is a public figure. I have a responsibility to be transparent. I have a responsibility to grow publicly. A lot of dog people I work with are just stuck in this despair and they're not trying to get out and they bought into this idea that it's their energy. I'm putting that in air quotes for people, really. But the underlying message is this is your fault, your dog's behavior is your fault, and what's somebody going to do with that? Right? So my evolution fast forwarded to. I end up. I work with dogs who are labeled aggressive and I you know in hindsight I could have, i see myself in them and then the reward for that, if you will, is I get offered more opportunities to do that. And then I end up my wife and I, brooklyn, opened a facility in Los Angeles. The name of our company is the Zen dog. The name of the facility was the Zen yard, and we provided what appeared to be a grossly underserved community, namely dogs that have reactivity and aggression, and we provided them support. And we were able to do that for many, many years till we closed down as a response to lockdowns and took an opportunity for our family to move out to Austin and make just a really important quality of life shift for us.

Speaker 2: 13:11

And two things about my evolution as a trainer and as a dog person. One is when I started this is the predictable downside of pulling stuff from the internet or television is I didn't have enough information and I was operating from a highly. I was operating. I was emotionally driven in how I train. I took things personally. I was too stubborn to ask for help. I was embarrassed about asking for help And my dog suffered for it because I would just grab and pull what fit my mindset. And my mindset was really shaped by my emotional life. A lot of the work that I've been able to do, with tremendous support, is much more about observing my cognitive thinking, asking how do I think, because that's going to inform why I think and what I do and that's going to inform how I treat my dog. So I just learned how to treat dogs better, treat people better, become a better teacher, become a better trainer. Along the way, i got a television show Dog Impossimults. It's on Disney Plus And that was a privileged opportunity for me to land that.

Speaker 2: 14:36

And I didn't have that come about. We had a number of celebrity clients, which is not uncommon in LA And one of them, lena Dunham. She went public about us taking care of her dog. That was it, i think. Like two hours after she went public, somebody reached out and said, hey, have you ever thought about doing a show? And I said yes and I wouldn't trade it. It's been an amazing opportunity It's.

Speaker 2: 15:10

You know, i am in a very, very small percentage of people in the world. I'm an adult white male. I identify as heterosexual. I have a television show on Disney Plus, like you know, the affordances I've been given and the inherent privilege and all of that is it continues to be revealed to me. So I land there and unfortunately, i didn't know what I didn't know. I knew that I was onto something that really the dog-human relationship was the key, but I didn't have enough education and information and skill. And then, all of a sudden, i had a TV show. So when I saw the dailies what we call the dailies are the feedback, rather, you know, the rough cut edits for the show I remember thinking now I wish I hadn't done this. I'm responsible. I'm not responsible for anything beyond the content, but I'm responsible for the content. Nobody can edit or CGI what we're doing, so that's on me, and there was an understandable. The public received the show very well. The profession did not, and I understand that.

Speaker 1: 16:28

I don't disagree with their concerns And.

Speaker 2: 16:31

I have gotten a ton of support professionally and made a lot of inroads in living what I consider to be an amended life, professionally and personally. I got a second season, which is rare, and in the second season I was committed to bringing my education and being a certified and actually being the only certified dog trainer on television At that point. That was my goal And we were able to make that happen. So I'm really proud of the arc, you know, the beginning of season one to the end of season two And in season two spoiler alert the season finale there's a dog with a really serious bite history And we did no training, we just took care of, we just addressed his wellness, you know, got him chiropractic care and physical therapy and acupuncture and changed his diet and respected his consent cues And the dog never bit again You know it's just more of a underlying pain issues or underlying health issues which is so common in some of the dogs that are super reactive.

Speaker 1: 17:41

Yeah, definitely, they don't feel well Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:43

Yeah, so it's been. it's been quite an arc, and so you know I think I said a while back in this very long introductory answer to your question that you know, two things stand out to me, and one was around. this bite is just that the adults had failed me through no fault of their own. I felt, you know, broke my heart and I felt betrayed. But the other thing is that my willingness to see the human dog relationship differently and dogs differently has become so liberating for the dogs and for myself and the people I get to work with, so empowering for the dogs and myself and the people I get to work with, that I feel like I'm on the. I feel like I'm on the edge of something that is just it's, it is groundbreaking and it's going to really challenge the industry. We are a results oriented society. We are a results oriented culture.

Speaker 1: 18:51

That's baked in Quick fixes, yep.

Speaker 2: 18:54

Especially coming out of the last couple of years, where I don't mean this is a political statement, i'm just thinking about the human experience. People lost their experience of agency. That has an impact. They lost their opportunity to socialize. That has an impact and it impacts the dogs and the people. We don't really talk about how it affects the people. So the opportunity to really open up the doors as to what's possible in the human dog relationship, in spite of what the industry is telling me, in spite of what drives the money, and it's really something to be a part of. I'm working with a client here in Austin. I give an example and they're wonderful people to work with and hope they get to listen to this, because I'll give a shout out to Mr B and Ms J. I'll protect their anonymity And they're I'm working with them and therefore Huskies And they are so.

Speaker 1: 19:56

Four Huskies. I love a Husky. I love a Husky too. It's a lot of Huskies. Yeah, two of them are puppies.

Speaker 2: 20:02

Okay, it's a lot of Husky, so um, so I was, so I get to work with them. I'm privileged to be able to work with them with regularity and and and and and.

Speaker 2: 20:21

so we do a check in at the start of every session and yesterday, in the check in, one of their dogs has been struggling with some mental health issues. They're they're preparing to move and there's a lot of stress and they've got these two young puppies and a dog that was recently adopted and there's a lot of factors. And, uh, uh, ms J said to me, you know, i he wasn't going to take his medicine and we couldn't clean the wound and we don't want to force him. And so I finally decided to talk to him and she said I pulled out all of the medications. and I said to him and he hadn't taken his meds, you know they were keeping a close eye, but they but it was challenging and and his health is, you know, not where they'd like it to be And she said so I took all of the meds out and I sat down with him and I showed it to him and I said this is what this is.

Speaker 1: 21:15

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:16

This is what it does. This is how it's probably going to make you feel Yeah, because we have a deal, me and these dogs. No trixies. I'm going to tell you what it is, i'm going to find a way to help you, but I'm not going to try and trick you, because trust is paramount. So she's following the no trixies principle and I got no trixies from that, from Lord of the Rings. That's a little golem Shout out to golem. So so she, she talked him through it and and he, and she literally showed him let him sniff the bottle And she opened it and he took it and he ate it. Yeah, yeah, and that was it, and that was possible where that was within the realm of possibility, the entire time.

Speaker 1: 22:07

Right.

Speaker 2: 22:08

But the human had to pivot.

Speaker 1: 22:11

Right Just hit that open line of communication and listening to your animal and intention and all of those things.

Speaker 2: 22:20

All of those things, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:23

And we circle back to the show briefly. I want to know what one of the biggest challenges was of doing a dog training show, and I would assume perhaps it's what you said, in that you don't really have a lot of control over the content that they put out there. But I'm just curious, just so the public understands a little bit more that it's a show.

Speaker 2: 22:53

Yeah, thank you for asking. So this is. I'm going to answer this question specifically, because it's actually something I almost never talk about, and part of that is nobody needs to feel sorry for me, but it is its own world. Yeah, it takes us 80 hours to film one 43 minute episode.

Speaker 1: 23:17

Wow.

Speaker 2: 23:19

And so it's not as sexy, as I went to the bathroom and came back and magic just happened Right.

Speaker 2: 23:28

When I went into the second season, i was adamant about bringing more education and more information And some people were supportive of that and some people weren't. I remember explicitly being told on set at one time would you stop saying that Interesting? And the reason why I was saying what that was is because I wanted to make sure, because I have no control I have control over content, not editing. I wanted to make sure that points were being heard. Yeah, being on it.

Speaker 2: 24:04

The primary goal of the first season is to get a second season. Right, that's it. And if you can get a second season and then you get to the third season, then from the talent side which is what the people in front of the camera are called from the talent side then you've got some more wiggle room and negotiation. So there are a lot of agendas and machinations happening And it's a tricky thing to say. I don't really like how that went. But if we can get a second season, then we can do this Right And I think we live in a place that where there's a lot being revealed from underheard and unmet seen voices in the world about what happens when we'll do it right after we succeed.

Speaker 1: 24:52

Right, let's get that wow factor out there to get the followers to get the this, to get the that, and then we can get to the good stuff.

Speaker 2: 24:59

Right, then we can get to be more responsible or more, that's exactly. That's yeah, I'm gonna go over to the shelf and pull, because entertainment Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:07

Yeah, pull the integrity off. And so there was heart in what we did And I didn't. And I really you know it worth talking 12, 14, 16 hour days, california wildfires, you know where, summer temperatures there's a number of things that are just challenges for how one produces And I'm also trying to run my facility at the same time Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, sure, and so it was just really, really hectic and really intense at a time where I didn't have some of the same skills that I have now. I don't just mean professional training skills, i mean like personal skills, self-care and management skills, people skills, things like that. So a lot of challenge to it And it requires a certain skill.

Speaker 2: 25:59

And it so happens, you know, i had wanted to be ever since I was a kid. I all I ever wanted to be was famous, was famous. I thought fame was gonna fix it. You know that was how large the hole felt in my Sure, in my self-esteem, and I really loved I had gone to NYU, for I'm a trained actor. I loved that experience. That was one of the few places where I felt like I could tell the truth was in performance And with my addictions. There's a lot of things that I let go of. So it was remarkable to be back on camera and see, oh my gosh, none of it's been wasted.

Speaker 2: 26:41

And to get feedback. Oh, you seem really comfortable on camera. And there was a moment, charlotte, where I was watching the playback and I didn't hate myself And I thought, wow, why is that? And then I realized because in spite of all of the post-it notes and the self-help books and the go-get-ems that for the first time I was actually doing a project that was not about me, it was about the dogs. And that doesn't mean that I didn't bring a lot of ego to it, but I just had a singular focus that I didn't have before And that's a skill that I was really grateful to have landed on And I think it served the arc of what we're trying to do in that show. Well, and it's really hard and nobody gives a crap if you only slept four hours. Thankfully, hair and makeup is not a thing for me, so that was never a problem, but it was really hard and it was really rewarding And I wish I had done things differently and I wouldn't trade the experience because of where it's landed me now.

Speaker 1: 27:50

It sounds like in that moment you kind of just had a full circle moment where you were able to bring kind of all the things that made you who. You were together in that one time, like your desire to be on camera, your desire to be grounded and focused, your desire to help the animals, and that's something you should be really proud of, because a lot of people strive for that moment where they're feeling like so utterly connected right To spirit, to source, to whatever it is to who they are what they've.

Speaker 2: 28:23

Yeah, we were. I thank you very much for that. I'm touched by that, that, your encouragement, that it's something I should be proud of. And I think especially talk about being I don't know if you just said in the zone, but in that sense of in that experience of being present, particularly in the second season, because I knew there's a lot that wasn't novel anymore, it's there's nothing like it, there's nothing like being with a dog, it's just nothing like being with a dog. And one of my buddies, andrew Hale, who's based in the UK. He was a human psychologist. You know Andrew Hale.

Speaker 1: 29:00

He's I follow him. I just recently started following him. Yeah, i would love to have him on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 29:05

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, if you do, please tell him. I said hi, okay, i will. So so Andrew is, i'm gonna I'm putting a pin in for a plug, i'm gonna put in later for something that's happening in Sweden next year that involves Andrew. So Andrew comes from the human psychology perspective And then and he's not thinking about training in the conventional way He's not thinking about training in the way that the industry wants us to think, because the industry wants us to sell us something. But, like my buddy Kimoffee says, we've been lied to. If you wanna look for the top 10 breeds that are friendly, they're not gonna tell you what the inherent challenges are. They're not gonna tell you what the genetic histories are that may predict that you're going to have some challenges.

Speaker 1: 29:49

Cause they got something to sell you.

Speaker 2: 29:50

So Andrew's focus and he's a great inspiration for what I do is what if we just learn how to live with these dogs and we didn't make this about training, and if we got needs I just gave me chills, yeah Right. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it gives me. I get goosebumps with it and it gives me. It actually takes. It puts the onus on me in so far as I have to open. I have to open the tent of consideration I got.

Speaker 2: 30:22

I have to be willing to see things differently, which thankfully, being sober has taught me, because if I don't see things differently, i'm gonna go back to how I was Right. But it's taken a ton of pressure off of me and the dogs and the people that I work with. You know the evolution towards this And if we meet what we are finding anecdotally myself, andrew, my, shikashi Kimbroughie oh gosh, there's just so many. There's just so many great trainers out there. I'm thinking about a guy just connected with me, scott. Scott, i'm sorry I forgot your last name, but he's doing really amazing stuff too, just on the emotional well-beings of dogs. So if we just focus on that, what we're seeing anecdotally is like 70% of the behavior quote issues are gone.

Speaker 1: 31:14

Right, right.

Speaker 2: 31:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:19

And how much of that. I think an important you mentioned it a little bit earlier an important point is that how much of what we find frustrating is like when we're dealing with our dogs is really like about our ego, right, About like you're not doing what I say. You're, i'm embarrassed because my dog is yelling at somebody on the street and other people are judging me, you know.

Speaker 2: 31:46

Yeah, a lot, i think, for the people that will share that with me. It's something I try to be, i try to be highly transparent about, in part because I can't live a double life anymore. I can't be the public personality and then the. And I also try to share it because, as I have learned from those who went before me, the people who helped save my life is is, if I'm willing to, to be of service to, to, to another, nothing I've done will have been wasted Right.

Speaker 2: 32:16

I bring I bring the, the entire value of of my mistakes to a session because I'm not better than you. I just have made them already and I can identify, you know So, the overwhelming number of people, including a bunch of trainers I deeply respect. Legends in the field talk about feeling embarrassed about how their dog's behavior is today on the walk Right, and part of the movement and part of what I'm particularly inspired about is how we can better support the humans and the human dog relationship.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Yes.

Speaker 2: 32:55

If we don't, if we don't we, they suffer and dogs suffer. I mean, it's that simple, the numbers are that simple, so the onus is on us.

Speaker 1: 33:08

By supporting them, meaning you are, you know their, their feelings are valid. And they're not failures.

Speaker 2: 33:17

Right, that's too Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:20

And what other ways can we support?

Speaker 2: 33:23

Well, one of the things that's really useful that that I got that really hit home for me in taking Kimbroughy's legs work and I I encourage anybody to check out what Kimbroughy is doing. Bro P H E Y and she created the legs model. Big stands for learning, education, genetics and self, the sentient being, and it's a broad and deep framework at which to look at why behavior is happening before we get to how we quote fix it. So let's take barking, for example.

Speaker 2: 33:52

My dog is barking a lot and that's frustrating And I I believe what I was told, that if my dog respected me it would stop barking when I told it to right, right, and I think that's a big train to nowhere. So if I look at the barking and I consider that I'm actually living with a border collie in an apartment building and a border collie has certain needs and it's not going to be met by a one hour walk but in fact maybe a 20 minute sniffari or finding a sniff spot locale. So one way I helped take the pressure off the human is A. It's going to sound radical, i say to people, but your dog's behavior is 100% appropriate based on its experience in this moment.

Speaker 1: 34:35

B I love that. Also gave me chills. Yes, i love that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:38

Oh good B let's let's take the pressure off of everybody. I just worked with a client in LA. The dog has a lot of conflicting feelings on the walk. But the dog doesn't actually have to go on a walk. The dog has to get other needs met And enrichment has been a massive shift, the discussion around enrichment shout out to Emily Strong and Ally Bender, who wrote Canine Enrichment for the real world, and shout out to my friend Beth Prokofi and it Rehab, rescue and Dallas, and you know the number of trainers that just put enrichment first and foremost.

Speaker 2: 35:11

And enrichment for us would be like we should consider that parallel to wellness. So 30 minutes of chewing, licking or sniffing, which is where a lot of enrichment activities happen, equals about an hour of physical exercise. So if you're struggling with a dog that's considered to be reactive and it's, and your feelings are getting hurt all of which is normal you might not even have to take your dog on a walk. If you're in an apartment, you're going to have to get your dog outside. You know, i think reaching out to get help, help and support around that from somebody who's educated is important, but, as I was saying to this client in LA, i'm going to actually suggest that you don't walk your dog for the next week And then give me a call and see how you're doing. And every time I get that one week check-in call, somebody says, oh God, it's such a relief. I'm so glad that you said that. I didn't even know that that was okay.

Speaker 1: 36:09

Right.

Speaker 2: 36:10

So that is another example of how, if I can help people see the dog's behavior just you know somewhat differently, then they can start to see that there's a lot less pressure to have a lot less pressure to put on themselves in terms of what they think they have to do for their dog every day.

Speaker 1: 36:28

Right.

Speaker 2: 36:29

Right And also, you know, i just being an empathetic person and really looking at my journey, it matters to me how people feel in the sessions and how they feel about their relationship with their dog, and so a lot. Another way that I help take pressure off is by sharing my own direct experience. It's not really worth much if I try and hide it Right.

Speaker 1: 36:59

You want to. I know you had a special, what I call a soul dog, rengi. Is that his name?

Speaker 2: 37:05

Rengi yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:06

And he was really the one. Yeah, oh, he's a gen do, the one who really, you know, i call chance my soul dog and I know you know, the one who really was responsible for guiding you, you know, and changing your life. Do you want to talk about him briefly?

Speaker 2: 37:25

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:26

You don't have to, because I know you may. You just you lost him recently.

Speaker 2: 37:29

Yeah, we just passed his one year anniversary. I was, yeah, i was saying to my wife oh gosh, i want to give a shout out to senior dog doc. If you all are looking for somebody to follow a couple of people, i really I do follow her Yeah, I think she's fantastic and Dr Lisa Lipman, and I'm sorry there's a third doctor. The three of them meet monthly.

Speaker 1: 37:50

The Pet Law Psychologist.

Speaker 2: 37:52

Yes, yes, thank you, katie Lawler. Yes, katie Lawler. Thank you, charlotte. Just a great group of people, and so so Rengi passed when he was 17. I met him when he was about four and a half. He's a Korean Jindo, a violent, bite history. I met him early on and I saw him at that, my then the girlfriend that I was living with when I'd gotten clean and sober. She came back one day from the shelter and she said you know, my daughter and I saw a dog today and I said we're not taking another dog until I make more money with the Yankees. Win the World series.

Speaker 1: 38:39

Right.

Speaker 2: 38:40

And neither of those things happened, but without telling them. I went to go see him And I and the person there, a woman named Charlotte, at West LA, she said I don't know why he's still here. He's been adopted and returned. We've had him for six months. They moved him from another shelter, i don't know why he's here.

Speaker 2: 39:03

And I just I went to see him and I went home and I couldn't stop thinking about him And I was in a meditation and in the meditation what I heard was that's your dog. You have to go get him and he will save your life someday. And in more ways than I could understand, he did that and he was just an exceptional being. You know, one of those beings that you feel privileged to be around. you feel a particular kind of joy when they seem to like you or give you attention. You know he wasn't. he wasn't affectionate the way that we might normally think about it, but when he loved, he loved really hard and he would press in and you know, only a handful of people could touch him And by the time he passed.

Speaker 2: 39:58

There was a beautiful moment before he passed. He was, he just was. You know, his time was coming. There was a beautiful moment where I walked into my office and I saw my then two and a half year old daughter. They were standing by the window sill and she was looking at the window and he had his head rested in her hand and she was just petting him And there was a time before that where nobody could have touched him without getting bit. And just to see the arc of that, and I think the thing there's so much about Rengue. But I think, in light of our conversation, and part of what I want to share is that grief is not linear and thankfully, when I got sent his ashes which I you know, which was just an awkward thing anyway, but I wanted something, hopefully the company that did it send out a pamphlet about grief. Huge credit to them. I wish I could remember their name, but huge credit to them.

Speaker 1: 41:04

Was it lap of love, or was it?

Speaker 2: 41:05

It wasn't lap of love, no. And to the vet in Dr Pullen here in Austin at PAZ, paz Venture in the West, who made the point of doing a house call and coming out, and we've had the privilege of being with all three of our dogs when they passed in our home and our children being able to see all three of those passings and the other dogs. But the grief. They sent a grief pamphlet and God bless them because I read it and I checked every box and I would have just chalked it up to something's wrong with me or I'm not right or I gotta buckle down or any of that kind of you know personal grass lighting.

Speaker 2: 41:51

And the other thing that was just such a vital, vital support was the senior dog doctors. You know being on that support group because I heard there for the first time I heard about this thing called anticipatory grief.

Speaker 1: 42:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:12

And I cannot say enough about. I cannot say enough about these women that run that group, because they gave me permission to have feelings before. I thought it was time to have the feelings. And for those who aren't aware, anticipatory grief is the experience of grief before the event has happened And it shows up with, certainly with the loss of a loved one. It also shows up in a move or a job change or heading into surgery, you know, for example. It's a real thing.

Speaker 1: 42:46

It can show up as early as we had I had. Christina Sia, who was with Lap of Love They're end of life hospice care for pets And she was talking about anticipatory grief and she was saying that anticipatory grief can show up as early as even when you adopt your dog. You're anticipating when the end of this relationship is gonna happen you know, It's a very real thing.

Speaker 1: 43:12

I'm definitely feeling that as chance ages I mean he's 15, doing great. But you know, every moment is not that I don't think about it, right? I don't wanna put that energy out there, right.

Speaker 2: 43:25

But, yeah, yeah, it was useful for me to be able to have the framework for that so that I didn't feel guilty about it And when it came up I could allow for the feelings.

Speaker 2: 43:38

Big credit to my wife, brooklyn, who is she's a tremendous model for our kids and just to let them have their feelings, it's really it's uncovered a lot of uncomfortable experience for my reflections of my own childhood and our lineage And being, you know, with these three doctors, with these three specialists and the senior dog support.

Speaker 2: 44:04

It allowed me to have the feelings which is just as present while I'm there And I you know this I'm already having anticipatory grief about not watching my kids. Sure, not seeing them do things I mean never. I mean never I, we had kids older. I mean never see them get married or have kids or find, you know, fall in love or have a partner. I don't care about marriage per se. I'm really grateful that Brooklyn and I are married, but, like the, those seminal moments, you know, or find a job that they love or a trip that they took that they want to talk about. And so, again, thank you to those, to the senior dog dog support, because they've opened up my world for me And, i think, in a way that they hadn't anticipated.

Speaker 1: 44:59

And I will. For those that are listening, i will put the link to them. They offer a workshops right On anticipatory grief and on the grieving the loss of a pet.

Speaker 2: 45:08

And.

Speaker 1: 45:08

I'll put the link to them in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 45:11

So it's special, special work. And the other thing about you know, with Rengue the Jindal Passing is there's a lot of other things. Yeah, but with his passing, I had heard from the senior dog, dog, since better a day early than a day late.

Speaker 1: 45:30

Yes.

Speaker 2: 45:31

And we had to make a. It felt so bizarre and sterile And I still feel a little bit awkward and kind of like internally ashamed of thinking about it this way, but I want to share it. I knew he was ailing. I knew there's a remarkable doctor, dr Palmquist, who's at yeah, i love a pet. Yeah, yeah, i doubt it's sentinel.

Speaker 1: 45:57

We just talked about him in the last podcast episode with Dr Marty Goldstein.

Speaker 2: 46:03

Oh.

Speaker 1: 46:05

Who he? Dr Palmquist, yeah, he's out in sentinel and people just love.

Speaker 2: 46:09

Dr Palmquist. I can't say enough about him and his skill set and is the range of what he's willing to do, everything from herbs to laser medicine to, you know, chiropractic care. I mean just in his knowledge and his compassion. But I remember when our Husky Wolf Pierre passed Dr and we weren't sure about him going. Dr Palmquist said two things the heart usually knows in this matter and that dogs don't like. Dogs often go before summer because they don't want to endure the summer.

Speaker 1: 46:47

Interesting. You're not the most to say that because they don't want to endure the heat or the yeah yeah, the discomfort of it, And we're in Texas.

Speaker 2: 46:56

You know we're as you and I are talking. It's going to be, i think, a hundred and three, a hundred and six this week. Oh, my gosh, which is that's his own?

Speaker 1: 47:05

We're having this mysterious June gloom over here right now.

Speaker 2: 47:07

Yeah. So I knew when Rangay was passing, i remembered what Dr Palmquist had said, yeah, and I remembered what the senior dog, docs, had said. And I literally looked at my calendar and I said to Brooklyn, i'm gonna we're gonna have to make a decision about when we help him pass, because I'm gonna need a week, i'm gonna be able to talk to anybody for a week And I'm gonna need days to be with him before he goes. And we are exceptionally fortunate that we were in a position to be able to do that And I built that in And so I spent the last three days with him. He would never really, he was always alert. But you know, his body was, his body was transitioning. And I remember the last three days I just mostly lay on the floor with him. And you could never lay on the floor, you could never get close to Rangay. Like, lay on the floor with him would never happen.

Speaker 1: 48:09

Not a snuggler Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:12

You know, like you'd get like 20 or 30 seconds. Then he would do a little stress, sneeze, and he'd be out. Yeah, like, yeah, it's kind of like my early dating life was kind of like that. Totally I gave it to him I don't know early Matt, let's be honest, like well into well into what it was.

Speaker 1: 48:30

I tell you Matt your wife.

Speaker 2: 48:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I remember telling Brooklyn, you know listen. I need to experience what it's like to live alone. And she said, okay, that's cool, that's fine. Two months later, we're moving in together, you know.

Speaker 1: 48:45

Because she gave you the choice.

Speaker 2: 48:47

Yes, she did Well. it appeared that she gave me the choice.

Speaker 1: 48:51

You knew what she was doing.

Speaker 2: 48:54

But either way, she did So, rangay, you know, i think the other thing that was particular about that transition was I got to experience it in a way that I hadn't before, you know, because I just was able to show up differently. I'd gotten great support and insight and inspiration from the people we've been talking about and I was able to show up differently. And how much that impacted Rangay's behavior or experience it's hard to say. I hope I get to know someday when I get to see him again. But I'm mostly I'm so grateful for what the kind of people the people that we're talking about and people like them, and the presence of your podcast And you know, i'm so grateful for the people that are out there that are modeling and providing and encouraging ways of thinking and support and feeling like this that allow this one particular guy to lay on the floor with his Jindo as he's passing and be present with him.

Speaker 2: 50:07

And my mother sent me a beautiful note afterwards. She said you know you saw the magnificence in Rangay and he was magnificent, just noble and gentle and very clean. I was a slow learner so he bit me a lot. He did.

Speaker 2: 50:29

He did. He actually bit me once in it and almost died from it.

Speaker 1: 50:35

You did.

Speaker 2: 50:36

Yeah, but again, that's not on him.

Speaker 1: 50:38

Dog bites are not no joke. Yeah, seek care for your dog bite. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:43

Yeah, so that was him, and.

Speaker 1: 50:45

Sorry.

Speaker 2: 50:46

That's okay. Thank you, and you know for what it's worth. It's okay if you do like I did, where you put the dog. You put your dog is passed. I did this with Pierre Husky. I'm gonna put everything away. And then I was like, well, i feel like throwing up. I just put everything back and I just left it there And then I wouldn't move one item until I was clear with that one item. You know. And giving it space.

Speaker 1: 51:14

My sister just I have not experienced the loss of a pet as an adult, and my sister lost her dog recently And I have driven She. They still have an altar of all his stuffed animals. You know, like nine months they have all of his stuffed animals and his toys and his ashes. You know, there and when they're ready, they will do what they need to do with it donate or keep it. You know what the key there is when you're ready and there's no timeline.

Speaker 2: 51:44

No, no, not a second sooner Yeah yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: 51:51

Thank you for sharing that story with us. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about what you are doing a lot of animal welfare work now, in addition to all the millions of other things that you're doing. Well, yeah, I'll talk a little bit about that and how people can you know, support you and get involved?

Speaker 2: 52:06

Yeah, thank you. So so that's you know, if we generally think about welfare and As the The baseline for wellness. I've been fortunate to, to. I was really fortunate to volunteer here in Austin, texas, with the Austin pets alive. I've been fortunate to work with, at this point, thousands and thousands of dogs who have been, who have been rescued and you know the shelter was able to provide for them and and, by the way, being a shelter worker is really really hard. So, for all of the feelings that we may have about How we wish things were being done differently, whenever people apply to work with me, i say cool, i'm open. I'd like you to go volunteer to shelter for six months and then call me, and you know what only one person in 15 years of training ever has They've ever called me and it's a lot.

Speaker 1: 53:09

It's a lot.

Speaker 2: 53:10

Yeah, yeah. So Everybody's got a place for how they can love dogs, but the animal welfare at no, but the animal welfare, particularly in Texas, where there are. There are more dogs euthanized here than Anywhere in the country and I think the numbers are somewhere between six, six hundred thousand and upwards of a million That are euthanized in the course of the year. So It's, it's more than anything, it's about the communities not being served. It's. It's really not much more complicated than that and, as evidenced by, there's a great Rescue that I've been fortunate to work with. It's down in the Houston area, pearl land, and That group has demonstrated how they can offer affordable of veterinary care to people who would otherwise surrender their dogs.

Speaker 2: 54:06

Texas is one of the few states where I've been privileged to, to Privilege to serve as an ambassador for the Texas Humane legislation network and Part of what I do is try and shed light on what they're doing. So there's a bill that's that has been presented At the state level and it may not have traction, although there are some other large successes regarding puppy mills, regarding a trap, newer Spain release program for cats, which is showing up to be really positive in the communities. But there's, but in Texas it's illegal to bring. I can't bring my dog to a veterinary care or a shelter and receive Free care. Now that doesn't mean people don't do it right quiet shout out to those who are doing it.

Speaker 2: 55:04

But what ends up happening is people surrender their dog to the shelter Right and maybe their dog gets metal career and then maybe they can take the dog back. So one of the bills was to was to change that just a loophole?

Speaker 1: 55:19

Yeah, it's just yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:20

It's a loophole, it's a workaround that a lot of people have found, and Texas and California are two of the leading states that have lost veterinary support.

Speaker 1: 55:31

There's just there's a real lack of veterinary care here in General that I know that during the pandemic and after the pandemic It's like you know the veterinary industry has really Kind of been hit hard and in burnout in all sorts of different things and overwhelm.

Speaker 2: 55:47

But I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 55:48

I didn't know that.

Speaker 2: 55:49

Yeah, so they're in scent.

Speaker 2: 55:51

There are incentive programs being built in to veterinary schools from, you know, from the state of Texas and other states that are just trying to draw people here because, frankly, we need the help. Yeah, so animal welfare is ever present here. Don't have to drive far to see where somebody is in need. A huge shout out to Texas Humane Legislation Network. They were the ones that passed and I'm blanking at the moment I'm gonna blame it on dad rain, but they got the bill passed last year that Mandated basic conditions for animals that are left outside and They closed the They. They closed the loophole which said if you see an animal in danger because of the conditions, you have to wait 24 hours before you can report it. Well, in 24 hours that animal is dead.

Speaker 1: 56:52

Right right.

Speaker 2: 56:52

So they're just doing exceptional work here, and then I also I also am trying to support behind the scenes and wherever I can. There's just a number of underserved communities that need to be helped, that are not just economically ravaged. Veterans don't get enough support. Yeah, you know we get into the racism and the classism and the discrimination And there's a number of people that aren't gonna get the information that they need. And and what's true is if we can support the children Right, then we actually are impacting things in a greater scale. And One other thing, coming back to the pin that I put in regarding Sweden is I Was able to speak at a conference last year and really tell a lot of Some of what I shared here today about my story and change. Really, you know how people can change if they're given the opportunity.

Speaker 1: 57:50

Right.

Speaker 2: 57:51

I, i needed to change and I got clean and sober and I didn't die. And I needed to change and I got support and I became certified and learned how to help dogs in a better way and right. And I just so I was asked to speak at a Ed in Sweden and and as I started to talk about it with with One of the one of my colleagues in Finland and one of my colleagues in Sweden, as we started to talk about it, we we realized that within our industry, in our profession, it's really difficult to actually ask questions and it's difficult to say we make mistakes and Especially in the world of cancel culture. I'm one of the only people I know that's actually survived cancel culture.

Speaker 2: 58:33

There was a huge movement to get me taken off the air and again, i don't disagree with You know some of what people were seeing, but if I didn't get the help that I'd gotten, then I wouldn't be able to talk to you here about about how we make progress Right. So change has saved my life and it's helped me. It's helped me support dogs and people in a new way and I, in talking with my colleagues, we decided we wanted an entire conference just about change, not about dog training. So we are inviting, we're gonna host this in Sweden and it's called dog people evolution.

Speaker 2: 59:09

Okay and the dog people evolution conference is gonna happen in Sweden three days virtually May 29, 30 and 31 of next year, and June 1st and 2nd and I think we've gonna have close to 25 speakers Really important voices. Sindoor Ponga we're hoping that she's gonna be able to join us. We haven't connected with her yet, but she's our ask list well, hopefully you'll ask her before the podcast comes out.

Speaker 1: 59:39

I write or she'll. Maybe she'll listen to the podcast and be out. Sure she would yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:46

So So we want to bring some of the you know, i Don't want to use the word best, but some of the most highly recognized and esteemed and educated Voices and really important voices that are new, that aren't known, that aren't typically seen, and The challenge to the speakers is let's talk about how you changed. How you changed, yeah, as your topic. Why do you change? Why, what happens if you don't change? because if we don't and this is this is a A global picture if we don't start talking about our inability to talk about things, right inability to do the work.

Speaker 2: 1:00:35

Yeah inability to do the work, fear of doing the work. If we don't learn how to talk to each other, if We don't learn how to disagree, we are in Exponential trouble because we're already in trouble right now, right in and out of our specifically to to okay, i was gonna say you talking specifically to dog training or just a life in general. No, because the great divide in general, yeah, yeah, society in general, the great divide that is endemic. You know of where we're at globally. Dog profession is no different.

Speaker 2: 1:01:13

You know so very interesting Yeah, social media doesn't support it and, and You know so, we really, we really have an opportunity and, for myself, a responsibility to support conversations in a different way.

Speaker 1: 1:01:34

Right. Is this open to? is this just for people within the industry, or is it something that pet parents can go to if they want to just learn more?

Speaker 2: 1:01:44

Yes, we would love to have pet parents, because the thing that we're at, in fact we are specifically, we are clear myself and Jessica and Petra, the three of us as the developers and my partner, michael we are clear that this is not a dog training conference. In fact, it will be the first of its kind. Because where else are you going to hear the names that are going to be there, right, Andrew Hale and Mike Shakrasho and Kim Brophy, and you know like just a number. I'm teasing some out, but a number of. Where else are you going to hear these people ever gather? Right? Where have these people ever gathered and not talked about dog training, only talked about their own personal change Interesting? This never happened.

Speaker 1: 1:02:32

Wow, we're going to see. That's a really wonderful idea.

Speaker 2: 1:02:35

Thank you, i see that they are inspired to when people see.

Speaker 1: 1:02:39

you know, when people see other people changing and doing the work, most often they're inspired. It's kind of gives them it's okay for them to do it, it's okay.

Speaker 2: 1:02:47

That's right. Permission and inspiration. Yeah, you're right, charlotte. Yeah, and that's what we need more of that Now. We need more inspiration and permission for people to be who they are, so that dogs can be who they are.

Speaker 1: 1:03:01

Right. Thank you, Matt. This was really lovely. I really appreciate this. Do you have anything else that you want to add for pet parents or anybody listening?

Speaker 2: 1:03:12

Oh yeah, i hope. I hope I didn't go too far. There's the dog. life is just so. it's so endlessly fascinating and enriching. So I hope I didn't go too far down the hole there. If I was going to just keep it simple, oh good, who wants?

Speaker 1: 1:03:33

simple. Who wants simple Yeah?

Speaker 2: 1:03:36

You know, if we're just going to make it easy. Look, i failed biology in high school, so I'm not the science guy. I hang around people that are a lot smarter than me about some things, but a fundamentally scientific question is if I were a dog, how would this make me feel? So if that proceeds, anything I'm trying to do to or for my dog, if I were a dog, how would this make me feel? Right, that's a pretty good place to start.

Speaker 1: 1:04:09

It changes everything. Really just putting that question changes how you just completely changes how you would feel about a situation, even as a human right. Yeah, how you feel about what you're doing with your dog or how you're treating your dog or things. Yep, that's great.

Speaker 2: 1:04:25

And you're not alone. That's the second thing I want to leave people with. You're not alone.

Speaker 1: 1:04:31

Yeah, and there are resources out there to help, right? Yep, what are some of the? do you want to leave pet parents with some of the resources? you think? some of the ways that people could seek help, or seek your help, or? if they're struggling with a dog, with reactivity or anything that they're struggling with.

Speaker 2: 1:04:49

Yeah, one of the things that we saw in the need for human support that I saw is a mentorship program, a support program. So what we launched, what my team and I launched, is something called LEAP Lift Each Animal Person And we have courses that will be open again in August. Okay, so we have six-week courses and we focus, we challenge each other to focus on how we think and why we think, so that we actually have a better understanding about how we arrive in the moment with our dogs. And it's been a fascinating and really enriching experience on my end to be a part of it, to watch how people take really take control Control is a tricky word. They really connect with the innate joy and I will use the word power and responsibility and possibility that exists in loving a dog and caring for a dog.

Speaker 2: 1:05:59

So the LEAP program, so people can find that. You can come to my website, thezindogcom. There are links for that available. I'd still do Absolutely show notes. Yeah, thank you. I'm active on social media, typically on Instagram and Facebook. That's where I'm most active those two places And I continue to do, when available, private sessions, and I do those virtually too. So I do work with people in LA, i do work with people around the world virtually. Most of all, if you need help, ask for it.

Speaker 1: 1:06:37

Right. Thank you, matt, i so appreciate this.

Speaker 2: 1:06:41

Thanks, Charlotte. I really appreciate the chance to sit and do most of the talking.

Speaker 1: 1:06:47

Yeah, you made it easy for me. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Buru Podcast. As always, i've put links in the show notes for some of the things that we chatted about today And if you are enjoying these episodes, please don't forget to rate and follow the Buru wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at Buru Podcast. If you have a story of pain on companionship that you want to share with me, or a question or even a comment, i'd love to hear from you. Please email me, charlotte, at theburucom. All right, you guys, i'll see you guys next time.