Spaying and Neutering Your Pet with Dr. Karen Tobias

In this episode I chat with renowned veterinarian Dr. Karen Tobias,  DVM, MS, DACVS. We discuss what the latest science reveals about spaying and neutering our pups. We delve into why we should be taking an individualized approach, with attention to the health benefits, the side effects, and the age- and breed-specific considerations to help you determine the best time to schedule your pup’s gonadectomy.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Dogs make the best companions for humans. This podcast aims to help make humans better companions for their dogs. Welcome to the Baroo Podcast, a modern lifestyle podcast for dogs and their people. I'm your host, charlotte Bain. I've been caring for other people's dogs for more than 15 years and, while I've learned a lot in my career, I definitely don't know at all. So I've collected an ever-evolving roster of amazing dog people and I learn new things from them all the time. Hi you guys. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of the Baroo Podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:47

In today's chat I talk with renowned veterinarian Dr Karen Tobias. We chat about spaying and neutering our pets, the health benefits, the side effects and the age and breed specific considerations that can help determine the best time to schedule the procedure. I do want to mention and clarify something I think I bring up around the 30 minute mark. I bring up the push for mandatory spay and neuter laws in the city of Los Angeles and I completely misspoke. We have had mandatory spay and neuter laws in Los Angeles for quite some time. The laws require that cats and dogs over four months of age be spayed or neutered and it does provide for some specific exemptions. The law is really aimed at humanely reducing the number of pets that are abandoned and euthanized each year, and what they are pushing for now is for this law to actually be enforced, this law that has been around for quite some time. They're hoping it can be enforced to help with the overpopulation crisis that we are seeing right now in our city and county shelters and, unfortunately, the rate of euthanasia that is happening simply because they don't have any more space in the shelters.

Speaker 1: 1:55

We only touched on this briefly, but I just wanted to clarify, and this is a really important conversation, so let's jump into the chat. Well, first of all, thank you so much for jumping on and chatting with me. We are going to talk about spaying and neutering our pets and clear up some of the misinformation around it, and talk about the latest science and the latest research in regards to spaying and neutering our pets, and I would love it if you would introduce yourself to my listeners. You have many, many qualifications, too many for me to even keep track of, so I'll let you do the honors.

Speaker 2: 2:39

Well, I'm Dr Karen Tobias and I am a professor at the University of Tennessee, the College of Veterinary Medicine, and I've been here at UT for about 23 years and I've had a long career before then, and I guess what I'm specifically known for is several textbooks that I've written or edited, or both, that provide a lot of information about surgery in dogs and cats.

Speaker 1: 3:10

Yeah, so how did you get start? Can we briefly talk about how you got started in veterinary medicine? I love to hear a little bit about people's backgrounds. I love what their inspiration was. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:20

Yeah, I graduated from University of Illinois College of Veterinary Medicine and initially when I went to Southern Illinois University I wanted to be a forest ranger and ride around the course in the woods and and sounds great Builder and all that kind of stuff. And when I went into forestry I found out 95% of the jobs were desk jobs. So I said, well, I'm just going to be a veterinarian and then I'll go ahead and be a forest ranger. Yeah, I found out it wasn't quite that simple, but anyway, I got into veterinary medicine and I absolutely loved it and turned out that I was good with my hands and so I went on and did an internship at Purdue and a residency in a master's at Ohio State and then clinical, clinical and structure ship in Georgia and then I taught at Washington State University. So it's been a lot of places in the country. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:13

Wow, I would love it if I feel like there's a lot of misinformation out there about spaying and neutering your pet and a lot of confusing information out there, so I was hoping we could just jump in and talk about that. When I adopted my dog Chance, he was around they said around 10 months old, and I didn't have to think about it at all. He came to me neutered. They did that. That's part of part of what they do and I think it's. I think it's mandatory with a lot of rescues in many different states to only be able to adopt out dogs that have been spayed or neutered. So I didn't think about that at all. But as I've had this business for I've had a dog care business for upwards of God, I think it's over 15 years now it's a.

Speaker 1: 4:58

It's a conflicting issue for a lot of my clients when they get a new dog. Some don't want to spay or neuter their dog at all because they feel A sorry for the dog somehow or are worried about the health benefits with, or the health issues that could come with, spaying or neutering their pet and some want to do it like right away, like as soon as they possibly can, like I don't want to deal with this. When's the earliest that I can do this? Let's just get this over with. So first I would like to just cover some really basic information what is spaying and neutering and why is it important and Right? Yeah, we'll just start with that, all right.

Speaker 2: 5:35

Well, I think traditionally a spay has included removal of the ovaries and removal of most of the uterus, and that's been something that's been promoted for a very long time in the United States, and there have been many reasons why it's been promoted.

Speaker 2: 5:54

One is that it's easier for owners to manage Sometimes very hard for owners to deal with a female dog that's in heat, and so not only do they have to worry about whatever mess happens in their house, but they have to worry about protecting that animal from becoming pregnant, and so that does take a lot of work, and so most animals or most owners, I would say do it as a convenient factor is to try and take care of those Got it. Another reason why it's been traditional to spay animals is this 1940s to 1960s there was a lot of research done that looked at mammary cancer, mammary tumors in dogs, and found out that if you remove that hormonal source before those dogs are six months of age, it will dramatically reduce the risk of mammary cancer. And so those were the two main benefits that were described for spaying, for neutering. I think the main benefit was not necessarily the fact that you prevent the female dogs from getting impregnated. It seems like the males don't really care about that.

Speaker 1: 7:06

Yeah, I think that's a cross the board. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:09

I think the bigger thing was trying to control some of those male behaviors. And so if you have an animal that's getting aggressive, if you have an animal that's humping your leg, a lot of those types of things you might hope would be decreased if you castrate those animals, and then most intact male dogs are going to get an enlarged prostate. That's a problem with people as well as dogs, and so if you're having clinical signs from that in your dogs, where they're straining to defecate and they've got abdominal discomfort and maybe they even get an infection, then castration is going to take care of that. So that's been the traditional reason for castrating, and in castration, most of the time what that means is actually removing the testicles fully, and so you're not leaving anything there. You're not leaving any male hormones there at all.

Speaker 1: 8:04

Okay, so is that true that if you remove? I might be jumping around a bit here, but if you, I've heard mixed things about removing, like if you neuter a dog, that it how it affects their level of aggression or reactivity. I've been told by some that it can help that an intact dogs tend to be calmer than dogs who have had that hormone removed. Do we want to address that? So?

Speaker 2: 8:30

I think there are a lot of behavioral studies that have come out recently and that are still ongoing to look at the effects of castration and ovarohysterectomy, and certainly if you have some problems with interaction between dogs and you have an intact male dog, you may remove some of that activity.

Speaker 2: 8:54

You know you got to get rid of some of the hormonally related activity. Whether or not it will change aggression towards humans just depends on the inciting factor. If it's hormonally related, then yes, that would decrease the aggression. But if it is the behavior that's not associated with hormones, those types of things won't change at all. And so I think we do have this idea that that castrating or spaying is going to cause these animals to calm down. But realistically, when you look at what happens in Europe, most people in Europe don't jump toward ovarohysterectomy or castration. They learn how to manage their animals intact, and those animals are pretty darn well behaved when you see them in the pubs in Ireland and stuff like that, and so I think part of it is an issue with owners. We owners in the United States seem to be looking for easy answers. Whether it's behavior or whether it's managing a dog and heat, we're always looking for the quickest, easiest solution, instead of really thinking about what are other things we could potentially be doing.

Speaker 1: 10:01

Right, like working on socialization and proper diet and all the things that will help our dogs. So and I've also heard that in you know that other dogs who are neutered respond differently to dogs who are intact. So that may be where, because they are smelling those hormones that are different to them, things that they may not, that just smells different than other dogs, right, so they may have. I don't know if that's true, but they may have a reaction to or reactivity towards a dog that is unneutered versus a dog that is neutered.

Speaker 2: 10:43

I don't know whether there have been any studies on that in the United States, because my emphasis isn't as behavior as much, but I can certainly tell you that my own dog who spayed I got her in an analgesal disorder as well, so she came spayed. When I got her she had a different reaction to other dogs. Now that she's got some older dog hormonal problems, dogs react differently to her, so I could see why that would change. But again, I don't know whether this would also be something related to where you're from, because if all European dogs are mostly intact, you're probably used to smelling those types of pheromones if you're another dog, whereas here in the United States, if they're mostly neutered, maybe that does cause a difference in their behavior. Hmm, interesting.

Speaker 1: 11:35

I'll have to look into that a little bit more. So what are the benefits of spaying other than the pet population, which is not what we're talking about today, which is a big issue in the United States the overpopulation? What are some of the health benefits of spaying your pets versus health benefits of neutering your pets and what are some of the? We've talked a little bit about what can happen when you don't spay or neuter your pet. Some of the issues that come what are the benefits of spaying and neutering your pet and does it vary between breed? Does it vary between dog or age?

Speaker 2: 12:09

I think, when we're looking at the benefits of removing the ovaries and that's an important thing for people to know is that as long as you take the ovaries out, you don't have to take the uterus out. And so while in general we think of spay as being ovaries and most of the uterus, a lot of people just take the ovaries out. And if we do it laparoscopically, which is an even faster recovery for large dogs particularly, we just take the ovaries out. So besides the mammary cancer and that's the number one thing, mammary cancer, reduction in the risk of mammary cancer Another thing would be that pyometras, infected uterus, is very, very common as certain breeds get older, and that is a breed related percentage. So there was one group of beagles where 60 or 70% of them got pyometra and infected uterus when they got old. If you have one of those breeds, I guess, that are going to be predisposed to pyometra, then doing an ovariohysterectomy will prevent that risk, and pyometra can be fatal, and so maybe that might be another indication for it If you had a Doberman with von Willebrand's disease, and so the animal has trouble clotting its blood, having it go into a heat cycle every six months to a year, depending on how frequently it is for your dog could also be dangerous, and so for certain dogs that have problems with blood clotting as a genital issue, as a breed related issue, those animals should have an ovarioctomy because we don't want them going through the heat cycle. There have been some papers where certain dogs with epilepsy are better controlled if they're spayed and certain dogs with diabetes are better controlled if they're spayed, and so those might be specific issues that aren't necessarily related to a breed, but are related to an older animal disease that indicate this is a good idea, just in case, because we don't want to have to be dealing with more infections or we want to be able to reduce the seizures. It's not a general thing, though. I don't think every Australian shepherd owner is going to benefit from taking their dog out for an ovarioctomy, because I don't know if anything makes a difference in Australian shepherds with seizures In terms of the male dogs.

Speaker 2: 14:37

Besides prostatic enlargement, prostatic infections can happen. As they get the prostatic enlargement, they'll get cysts in their prostates and then those can get infected, and so that risk would be reduced. And then testicular tumors are very, very common in older dogs. However, most of the time they're not malignant tumors, but when they are malignant tumors, their bone marrow can get suppressed, and if their bone marrow gets suppressed, it may not come back, and so even if we castrate them, they may still have trouble making white cells or making red cells. It's such a very, very low percentage that the important thing that we have to think about is what's the risk of this versus the benefit of this, and that is definitely a breed-related decision. What breeds you have should affect whether or not you neuter, and it should affect when you neuter.

Speaker 1: 15:40

Okay, and what about people who have like mixed up rescue dogs? Then nobody knows.

Speaker 2: 15:46

I think our Okay.

Speaker 1: 15:50

A lot of these studies are not complete.

Speaker 2: 15:54

So, for instance, there's a big study out of UC Davis that was. It was a fantastic study at Lixxet, I think 33 different breeds, it's probably the best broad spectrum study that we have. But unfortunately they really were only like able to follow dogs out to about eight years of age and if a lot of the cancer happens after that age then it's not going to give you the most information possible. But in that study they listed the effects that they would see in those 33 breeds. And then there have been some very good studies on golden retrievers, labrador retrievers, german cheffords and rock filers. I would say that those are the four breeds that have been studied the most in terms of things like joint disease and when we should neuter based on that.

Speaker 1: 16:41

You mentioned removing just the ovaries. Is that something that many, most veterinarians offer now, or is that a new, something that's new? Because I did have a client ask me if I knew of anyone who just removed the ovaries, any veterinarians that just removed the ovaries, and I couldn't say that I did. So that was something that was new to me and I didn't know that that was something that's offered now, and is it healthier to do that versus taking the whole shebang for technical terms?

Speaker 2: 17:16

A biggest benefit of ovarioectomy is when we perform them laparoscopically.

Speaker 2: 17:24

So we're making little quarter inch to half inch incisions in the dog, two or three incisions in total, so very similar to what they would do in people.

Speaker 2: 17:34

When you're talking about your belly button surgery that they go through your belly button to take something out Well, that's what we're doing in the dogs, and so we're able to remove the ovaries.

Speaker 2: 17:45

If we try to take out everything that way, it's a bit more complicated because the uterus is a much more complicated structure to take out. But we just take the ovaries out and then those animals recover very quickly, and so they have less pain, they have less swelling, they have less risk of major complications and there's no difference in the risk of uterine infection for dogs that just have their ovaries out versus dogs that have their ovaries and most of their uterus taken out, and so the benefit of it is a faster recovery. If someone is doing an open surgery, then it doesn't really make much of a difference, and it's actually sometimes a little easier to take out the uterus along with it, because the uterus acts as a very handy handle for the surgeon, something to grab a hold of when you have a good opening, and so most of the time we're taking everything out. But clinically long term it doesn't make a difference whether you just take the ovaries or you take the ovaries and the uterus.

Speaker 1: 18:46

So it's just, it's an easier, it's a quicker, more efficient surgery for the dog. Essentially, If you're doing it laparoscopically.

Speaker 2: 18:55

If you're doing it laparoscopically, so that would be the benefit. And so we don't do a lot of small breed laparoscopic surgeries but a lot of large breed laparoscopic surgeries. And so it'd be the difference between cutting yourself shaving three times, versus somebody opening up your abdomen to take out your appendix One is going to hurt a lot more and take a lot longer to heal, and so that's the benefit of it. And so we'll do say, say, we get Labrador Retrievers or Great Danes, we'll take out the ovaries laparoscopically and we'll also tack their stomach to their body wall so they don't get a stomach torsion later in life. And so it's the combination of those two somewhat large surgeries for a big dog where they can go home the same day because it doesn't hurt very much.

Speaker 1: 19:43

Wow, is that what? That's what bloat is correct.

Speaker 2: 19:46

Right.

Speaker 1: 19:47

When they're tummy twists.

Speaker 2: 19:49

Right, that's sort of the layman's term for it. It's really bloat. Really is just that it gets bigger and the torsion is where, or the volgulous GDV it's called, is where it actually slips on itself and cuts off its blood. So that can be quite deadly.

Speaker 1: 20:06

We had a. We had one of our standard poodles growing up, had that, I think, maybe twice. I could be mistaken, I don't know if they can have it twice, but that would be lovely if you can, if that's something that you can address now with whispering what's being a neutering right.

Speaker 2: 20:25

So at the same time.

Speaker 1: 20:26

You can go in and do that, because I do. Yeah, that was very scary when that happened. He was not happy. It was very scary. Yes, yeah, I remember it specifically my next one. You just you jumped in and mentioned something about smaller breed dogs and I was going to ask if there's a difference in approach for this or any sort of difference between if you have a tiny dog versus a large dog in the health benefits or anything in that regard they're going to be more large breed dogs that have joint issues if there are spader frustrated too early, and that is much less common in small breed dogs.

Speaker 2: 21:06

And so I think when we're thinking about the timing, although there are a few few little facts where small breed dog can be affected, in general it's going to be the large breed dogs that we really have to think about, the timing of the space we're going to do them, the timing of the castrations, and I think that's such an important topic.

Speaker 2: 21:28

I think of the papers that are out there if you castrate a male golden retriever before it's six months of age, it has an 18% risk of joint disease in the rest of its life. If you castrate a spay a very, a very act of maze or a very hysterectomy, but spay a female golden retriever at less than six months of age, there's a 25% risk of joint disease the rest of its life. So now you have to think about those cost, risks, benefits of wow, if I neuter it before six months of age, I don't have to worry as much about memory tumors, I don't have to worry as much about them going into heat and having to take care of my light colored carpets and all that, but there's one in the hands that'll joint disease in the rest of its life and that can be terribly debilitating.

Speaker 1: 22:30

Yeah, absolutely, and that's because I mean clarify for me. So the hormones Help with the joint development, or so what we? Why does that affect joint disease?

Speaker 2: 22:42

for those of us who have no idea, good question and the bottom line is we're not really sure. I have some theories about it, but if you, if you castrate or spay them at a young age, then what may happen is you have a disproportionate development of muscle and bone and If their growth plates are not closing if you think about the old stories of the castratos, the male children who were neutered, I guess that a young age, that would be great singers. They were very tall, and so if you need certain hormones to close down those growth plates and those bones are actually growing much faster and there's a disproportion in the way they're growing, then maybe what it does is it alters the shape of the joints. That's one possibility. And for some of those dogs it also alters their risk of cancer. And so for a rock wiler, if a rock wiler is Neutered before it's six months of age, it has a 14 percent risk of of bone cancer, malignant bone cancer, with a 95% mortality rate eventually, whereas if you leave it intact for two years the risk is 7%. So you're cutting the risk of fatal bone cancer in half by delaying that surgery.

Speaker 2: 24:14

Okay, and in that dog, if that specific breed, when we look at the research, if you delay their neuter till two years of age, there's no risk, no difference in risk in mammary tumors. And so that's where, with each breed, we have to think about what are the cost, risk, benefits of Leaving them intact versus neutering them. And in a rot wiler, they should be left intact for two years, okay, okay, same with the German Shepherd should be left intact for at least 13 months. Golden retrievers Should be left intact for at least 13 months. Labrador's probably left intact for at least 13 months. Which means if you're a breeder or you're a veterinarian or you're an animal caretaker, you have to know how to deal with intact animals. So we're back to that behavior issue.

Speaker 1: 25:09

Yep, it's your job to you know, do the work and do the research and do everything you can to Assist and help, which is the point of this podcast. How can we be better companions for our dogs? So to so and I was golden retrievers tend to have bone cancer too. In my experience that they have it tends to. I always thought that there was a correlation between Spang, or it's being a neutering, and golden retrievers. You didn't mention the golden retriever in that way. Is that is that? Is there connection there? I know I've had clients who have, you know, waited because of the bone cancer issue in Golden's.

Speaker 2: 25:48

I think that that's not been proven to be specifically. Okay, sir, but when we look at cancer in general, if you, if you, spay Golden retriever female at less than six months of age, their risk of cancer is about 25% as well, and that's all. Cancer is fulmin, leukemia and those types of things. So one and a chance of getting cancer. And so when you balance that against, well, if I spayed before six months of age, they'll be less likely to get mammary cancer, but if they're more likely to get all other cancers, then maybe we better wait until they're a year of age.

Speaker 1: 26:24

Right. Is there a time, a time where it's too late to spay or neuter your pet All?

Speaker 2: 26:31

right, I think. I think it depends on what you're trying to get out of this spay or the neuter. If you're trying to prevent an Infected uterus of hyalumetra, it's never too late. If you're trying to treat an enlarged prostate or Remove a cancerous testicle, it's never too late. But if you are trying to see the benefits of reducing mammary cancer, then after, depending on the breed, probably after two to four years, really not going to see much reduction in mammary cancer development.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Okay, okay. So what are veterinarians now recommending? They're recommending just they're recommending per breed, really to look at the specific individual dog. Or is there still like blanket recommendations kind of across the board right now?

Speaker 2: 27:22

I don't think that they can as yet make recommendations per breed because unfortunately there's nobody that's gone through and really Really looked at these papers, the the one paper from UC Davis. They have pages and pages and pages of data to put together to try and figure out that cost versus the benefit. And so I think in general, a lot of Younger veterinarians are saying it'd be better if you waited when you've got a large breed dog. No, that's a general recommendation. There's been no benefit in great gains to changing the type of neutering. So it really is very breed related, but I don't think veterinarians have enough time to go through all the Hundreds of breeds that are available for people to own. This is you do this or you shouldn't do this, in general right and see the benefit of reducing joint disease. It's usually the large breed dogs who are continuing to grow beyond Six months of age and a growing very fast and growing very, very large. And so if you were to make that recommendation, even though it wouldn't benefit a great dainer and Irish wolf hound and it probably isn't going to hurt, except that the owner is going to have to figure out how to keep their corpus clean, but right, and then in most small breed dogs. Most of them aren't affected by the age of their neutering in terms of neutering them too young, but there are a few like certain Sizes of poodles and I can't remember I'd have to look at the article to see if it was miniature or toy. Right, it does affect the the joint development in those I think okay, in corgis that are neutered before six months of age, they're at a much higher risk for disc disease. Now, that's not really a small breed dog, but the the age of neutering doesn't affect disc disease and toxins. So there's so many little little interesting here that I think the owners are gonna need to do some research Because I don't think most veterinarians in practice have the time Right.

Speaker 2: 29:33

Another important thing for the owners to know is that if they delay either ovariohysterectomy or castration, but particularly ovariohysterectomy to when the dog is an adult number one, it should cost more. You have more supplies that you need. You have more anesthetic that you have to pay for. The pain relievers are going to cost more because it's going to be a larger volume. You're going to need more suture. It's going to take more time for the surgery. The incision needs to be bigger because if we try to make the same small incisions, there's a much greater risk of complications. So owners have to be aware that if they want the benefits of delaying ovariohysterectomy or castration, they need to pay for it.

Speaker 1: 30:24

Right Interesting, and this might not be a question for you, but I'm going to ask it anyway because I think in some states I know in like the city of Los Angeles they're really trying to get a blanket like mandatory spay and neuter your pet, just because we have such an overpopulation issue right now. How would that, if you have like a blanket law about spaying, neutering your pet, how would these, how would we be able to do that with all of these specific guidelines when it comes to the health and wellness of our pets at different ages, at different breeds and whatnot?

Speaker 2: 31:09

I think that that would have to be something that pet owners and veterinarians would have to discuss with the city or the county or the state, because I am sure that they have to make some recommendations for breeders If they are they planning on not having any breeders in their state at all.

Speaker 2: 31:30

If they have a breeder, then what are they going to do about that? And personally, if I owned a Rottweiler and I did not want to get want to have it spayed or neutered before it was at least a year of age, then I would that would be making a lot of noise there at the city if they were going to vote me to spay or neuter because I think that for the health of the animal it's very important. On the other hand, I don't think that we should be putting any limitations on animal shelters as far as when they spay or neuter, because realistically, the pet overpopulation issue may be a greater health problem than what those dogs are going to suffer later on. If we have all these animals running loose and we have them uncared for and starving and not having parasites treated and things like that, it's not very good for the pet itself and so I don't think we can put regulations on animal shelters to not spay or neuter.

Speaker 1: 32:28

That makes sense. That makes sense. Maybe that is more accurately what they're, what they're trying to pass. I haven't looked 100% into it, but I know that there is conversation right now because we have to do something, because it's it's really tough out there for the shelter animals in the strays.

Speaker 2: 32:43

Right.

Speaker 1: 32:44

And there are animals that are being turned into the shelter right now. So do you have anything else that you want to add for pet parents who are thinking about, or think have a new pup and are thinking about weighing the pros and cons of spaying and neutering their dog?

Speaker 2: 33:01

I think that an important thing is if you are a new pet owner. The internet can be a blessing and a danger, so you would like to find some reliable sites where you can learn more about the animals your breed or your breed cross. If you have an idea that this is a cross of a couple of things, learn more about it. Learn more about it in terms of what the personality is supposed to be like and the conditions that those animals can suffer. That would be the number one thing that you can do, because there are some things that you can do in an early age for some of these pets, and it doesn't have to be related to spaying or neutering. For instance, all of these people who are getting French Bulldogs. Okay Right, all right.

Speaker 2: 33:48

Number one if you get a French Bulldog, you need pet insurance because you will have very expensive bills. There are too many issues that these dogs suffer from. Number two if you can treat some of these issues early and the nostrils are one big thing is that if those puppies are born with small nostrils, that can be treated as a very young puppy. You may prevent issues in the future. And then, number three, if there are things that you can do to decrease the risk of problems like can I delay the spay or castration in my retriever, my German Shepherd? Now you need to inform yourself on what does it take to have an intact dog of that breed and you need to prepare for it. You can't have a three foot fence, you need to have a six foot fence. Yeah, you have to have a six foot fence.

Speaker 1: 34:41

That's not going to be there, yeah, I had an intact German Shepherd that I cared for and he would jump his fence every time and run down the street blocks away to find this other German Shepherd female and he would sit outside her gate. I kept finding him down there. It was really funny. It wasn't funny that he kept jumping and running around, but it was funny that he went straight towards this gorgeous German Shepherd female down the street. Yeah, yes, good taste. Yeah, good taste. So, yeah, well, thank you so much. This was really wonderful and I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me.

Speaker 2: 35:22

Sid, I appreciate having the time to talk about this. I think it's a really important topic and we need more information out there. We need more owners to know about it Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 35:34

Thank you, dr Tobias. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Beru Podcast, as always, if you enjoyed the episode, please don't forget to rate and follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and you can also follow us on Instagram at Beru Podcast, and I would love to hear from you. So if you have a story of canine companionship that you'd like to share with me, you have a question or even a comment, please feel free to reach out charlotteatheberucom. All right, you guys, see you next time.