Your Dog's Emotional Wellbeing: Conquering Separation Anxiety with Moira Heckenleitner

Unleash a deeper understanding of your furry friend's psyche as we navigate the misunderstood realm of canine separation anxiety with Moira Heckenleitner, a certified separation anxiety trainer and an influential member of the Chilean Association of Professional Dog Trainers. Known for her extensive experience in veterinary medicine and dog training, Moira helps us decode the signs of separation anxiety and shares invaluable strategies to help our canine companions who may struggle with this condition.

Useful Links:
https://separationanxietydog.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClBtuSALk6mEQgjA8PIYfwQ

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Dogs make the best companions for humans. This podcast aims to help make humans better companions for their dogs. Welcome to the Baroo Podcast, a modern lifestyle podcast for dogs and their people. I'm your host, charlotte Bain. I've been caring for other people's dogs for more than 15 years and, while I've learned a lot in my career, I definitely don't know at all. So I've collected an ever-evolving roster of amazing dog people and I learn new things from them all the time. Hi you guys. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of the Baroo Podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:50

Today, moira Heckenleitner joins me to discuss separation anxiety in our pups. Moira is a certified separation anxiety trainer and a founding member of the Chilean Association of Professional Dog Trainers. We discuss what separation anxiety is, what it isn't, what it looks like and some ways that we can help support our pups who may struggle with this condition. So let's just jump into the chat, well, okay, well, we'll just jump in. I really appreciate you jumping on with me. I know that you are a certified separation anxiety trainer as well as a veterinarian, so I was hoping you could jump in and just tell us a little bit about your background and how those two things came to be. If you don't, yeah yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2: 1:37

So. I am originally from Chile, that's why the accent.

Speaker 1: 1:42

The accent yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:44

I studied veterinary medicine there many years ago, 2000,. I finished in 2007 or something like that, and back then there wasn't a lot of opportunities for veterinarians, so the field wasn't working very well, like it wasn't very sustainable money speaking, financially speaking. So you had to get creative and I really loved behavior. One of my dreams was to be, like you know climbing a tree in Africa, like watching animals behave and like studying them. That was my childhood.

Speaker 1: 2:20

Yeah, it sounds great.

Speaker 2: 2:22

But there wasn't any options for that either, right? So I found out that you know, I could do like a dog training course, and I jumped into that, and so I started working as a dog trainer. Actually, and there wasn't a lot of education about dog training either. There was a lot of demand for it, and so we had to really educate the population, which has gone great, because if you see how things have shifted there in 10 years, it's just amazing, which makes me feel very happy and that's how I became a vet and a dog trainer.

Speaker 2: 2:56

So I actually did in practice as a clinician I haven't since 2009 or something like that and instead I just focused on behavior instead. That's kind of the journey.

Speaker 1: 3:13

Do you feel like you can use some of the knowledge that you gained in veterinary medicine towards dealing with animals and behavior? Definitely.

Speaker 2: 3:22

Definitely there are a lot of things that you can kind of pick and take advantage of when you have studied veterinary medicine.

Speaker 2: 3:32

One of them and it's a very broad one, but is that you can structure things in a certain way that allows you to be very objective, which is very helpful when you're dealing with behavior issues, because there are a lot of pieces that we have to consider and sometimes they can get away from us Like they can keep our mind.

Speaker 2: 3:53

So, like using some of the knowledge you learn as a veterinarian can help you with that. And, on the other hand, focusing on separation of sight here right now, I started working exclusively with separation of sight dogs in 2017 and from then on, and in this particular behavior disorder or behavior challenge, medication is a big thing, and not only that. In many cases, you can see that the actual root of the problem is medical and not even behavioral, because you probably see your own cases as well, many cases that look like behavior. When you start digging deeper, you find out that there's either a medical component affecting things or there's actually only a medical root that is causing the behavior change, and so knowing what to look for and when to send guardians to see their vets to make sure everything is okay in that regard can be very, very helpful.

Speaker 1: 5:02

Is that something that you always do? You always send them to see their veterinarian, as well as creating a protocol for behavior. Is that part of kind of what you do, or are there dogs that you're like? No, this is totally just behavior. This is not.

Speaker 2: 5:17

Yes, I actually love to make sure that we are approaching this in an integrative way and that we are all professionals, are on board and we're working as a team.

Speaker 2: 5:31

I really love to involve either they're already their veterinarian, the one they're working with, or to bring someone if they need something more specific like a vet behaviorist or a vet veterinarian that works in behavior and likes behavior, so we can all work in different areas of the dog and help them succeed. So yeah, I usually tend to ask at the beginning of my consultation if you know how are things going on? When was the last time they visited their vet? If that hasn't been for a while, I encourage them to do so and I usually write a behavior report so I can get in touch with them and we can start creating a plan together. In many cases what happens in separation anxiety is that dogs are already. Either they're either already on medication and you just have to get in touch and make sure that everything is in the place it has to be, or you have to start a medication protocol and that report and that connection makes a big difference because the veterinarian can choose the right medication for that particular case.

Speaker 1: 6:45

Right, yeah, that makes perfect sense. We'll jump a little bit deeper into that in a little bit, but since we're already jumping in, I'd love to just really talk about what separation anxiety is, what it looks like and how do we know if our dog has separation anxiety. Sometimes we mistake these behaviors. Is that your?

Speaker 2: 7:07

problem. That's my dog, I'm so sorry for the noise.

Speaker 1: 7:09

It's getting ugly. No, it's totally mine. I love it. It's always appropriate. Yeah, it's very cute. He keeps walking back and forth. Is that time of the day? It's like Friday. Oh yeah, he's like. I'm sorry, what are you doing? I'm like I'm going to go for a walk now. Are you that over there? Why are you talking to this lady? So, anywho, very cute, so yeah. So what does separation anxiety? How does it show up in our dogs?

Speaker 2: 7:37

That's a great question, and I think that, although separation anxiety is a term that is widely mentioned and everybody has said it at some point, right, I think every dog guardian has wondered about it, has talked about it Fortunately it's still pretty misunderstood and it became very popular.

Speaker 2: 8:00

It was already pretty prevalent and popular, but it became even more popular during the pandemic, when we didn't leave our dogs alone and then we started leaving them alone again and we started seeing things that we didn't like and things that concerned us, right. The problem is that there's something bigger than separation anxiety, let's call it that is called separation related behaviors, and I like to think about this term as an umbrella. That includes a lot of different things, and separation related behaviors are basically all the behaviors that a dog displays when it's left alone in the house that are undesirable either for them, for themselves and or for us humans, and these things can be the typical things you know barking, vocalizing, destroying objects that aren't meant to be toys or that we wouldn't like them to toys, eliminating pacing, among many others. Those are the most typical ones. So, however, those behaviors are non specific. With what does that mean? It means that your dog can bark for many reasons right, it can bark the dog can bark when you're around.

Speaker 2: 9:12

The dog can bark when you're not around, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is panicking. Right, and the same happens with destruction. The same happened when sorry with the squeaky toy.

Speaker 1: 9:23

I was waiting for him to get a toy. He looked like he was on the move for a toy. Okay, cute. So apologize.

Speaker 2: 9:29

Apologize, that's totally fine. So it's. The same goes with elimination, for example, like a dog can urinate in the house in a place where you wouldn't want to, which doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is panicking when he's alone or she's alone, right. So those are separate, related behaviors and they can happen due to many different causes. The underlying cause is the one that we want to recognize, and that underlying cause can be, for example, that the dog has too much energy, that the dog hasn't been educated to do or not do something. It could be that you live in a very busy neighborhood and every time a dog passes by with their guardian, your dog barks because your dog sees that other dog through the window, right. And it can also be separation anxiety. There are other things that could be happening as well, such as confinement issues, which is a big, big one, very prevalent one, because, at least in the US, it's very common to leave dogs in crates when left alone, and many dogs don't like that. That is what's actually aversive to them. That is what's the root of the problem, the underlying cause. But if you leave that dog free in the house, they don't display any of the symptoms or signs, and so it is very important to understand or to find out which one is the underlying cause of this behaviors before you jump into what to do and how to help them and answering your questions.

Speaker 2: 11:03

Circling back to your questions, with a long road to get there, separation anxiety is one of those causes and separation anxiety is basically the fear, the panic, the phobia of being left alone.

Speaker 2: 11:17

For that particular dog, being left alone is an aversive stimulus. So they're exposed to it. They will really try to cope with the situation, but they're going to reach a point, at an intensity so, at a certain duration of that absence, that they are not going to be able to successfully do it anymore and at that point the situation will become aversive and they will start showing this overt signs which won't disappear until someone is back, in other words, until this stimulus, this absence, is removed and the dog is not exposed to it anymore. And unfortunately, since this is a phobia, which is an irrational fear, the dog, over time, as he's exposed to it, isn't able to identify that this is not a flight or fight situation, that this is not a threat anymore, and instead he continues to display a stress response every time he is exposed to it. That's why it's so important for us to treat it and to implement a training protocol, instead of just letting it be and see if it's going to go away over time.

Speaker 1: 12:31

Is there an age where separation anxiety tends to show up in dogs, and these are throwing a few questions at you. But is it different? Your approach for dealing with it as a pup, let's say it's like a brand new puppy and you're leaving it for the first few times versus, like you know, an adult dog or even a senior dog, because I do know senior dogs can get more anxious, as dogs can get more anxious as they age. So I'm just curious if there's an age where you a common age where it comes up and if not, how do you treat it, differing depending on the dog and age.

Speaker 2: 13:10

That's a great question, because that was actually one of the the conceptions or the beliefs maybe 20 or 50 years ago, that this was a situation that used to arise during adolescence. But we have found out that that's not the case and that there's no correlation between age and the onset of this disorder. It's more about something that might have happened in the life of the dog that represented a change or something traumatizing that triggered the onset of this situation, and then, from then on, the dog is unable to to to successfully get out of it unless you, you work on it. And so I have puppies that have, who have always have separation anxiety since the very beginning. They are right to the house, they want they have separation anxiety. I have had cases where the dogs started showing signs after a certain situation, when they were like two years or three years old, and I also had dogs who are elderly, you know, geriatric dogs, who started developing signs when they were 13, 10 years old. So it's really. There is really no like rhyme or reason, it just happens.

Speaker 2: 14:28

And in regards to your second question and how you approach this, mostly you approach it the same. So the main foundation of the treatment or the protocol is the same, but you will have to make some adjustments depending on the situation. So, for example, with puppies, you might have a few hiccups because you might have to restrict certain areas, and if the dog also has confinement issues, you will have an extra challenge there or you will have to. I have something I call I have coined the term the puppy mode, and so when you have a puppy and you're working on separation anxiety, you have to really find the times where the puppy is in nap mode, relax mode, because if you find the puppy at the time that they are like playing around and having fun, you're not going to be, you're not setting the dog up for success. It's very hard to be successful because they're never going to relax.

Speaker 2: 15:23

So it really depends on the situation with an adult or older dog. It might be easier because you don't have to be worried about the dog doing things that you don't want to right Like it's. In that way it's easier, but it also could be harder because the dog might have medical issues going on. Certain restrictions of movement, you know, or even like cognitive issues or challenges that are impending are not letting the dog succeed. So it really depends on the dog definitely.

Speaker 1: 16:00

And so are there. How do you know, as we were talking about earlier, how do you know if this is a case that needs, like, medical attention? Or how do you know what are some signs of just thinking of, like the senior dogs, the elderly dogs, of the anxiety being something that is not really related to behavior. It's related to what are some of those signs that it could be a medical issue, versus just they're just quote, acting out or having you know, definitely issues in that way.

Speaker 2: 16:33

So first, and as we were mentioning or discussing before, I really like to make sure the dog is healthy, more so when the onset of this behavior is very acute, if it's something that happened like from that day to night, or like in just one day. All of a sudden the dog previous prior to that was totally fine and there was nothing else in the environment that suggests that there was something that happened to the dog. I would like to know if that was healthy, because it could be that a medical issue triggered it. But it also could be that this is not behavioral at all and it's just the medical issue that is causing the behavior. And as you resolve that, the behavior will naturally go away. So that's why I really, really make sure that the dog we know that the dog is healthy. If it's a senior dog, even more so. I, then I get much more pushy about suggesting strongly that the dog I know I actually love it.

Speaker 1: 17:40

It's just hard not to laugh. It's going to down. I hope that's a good one. And this is serious conversation with a little humor attached to it. Oh my God, I'm sorry. What was I going to say? No, no, so what? Can we give an example of what some medical issues could possibly be?

Speaker 2: 18:00

Yes, Like pain, for example. That's a great one. So pain, imagine, for example, when you were a kid and you were in pain. You first you wanted your mom or your dad or whoever was the object or for your affection. You wanted that person with you. You don't want to be left alone. It's like, well, be cool. And you were much more like annoyed about everything. Let's say someone was building a house beside you your house or your window. You were sick and you were.

Speaker 1: 18:32

you had a headache and you didn't want to be left alone.

Speaker 2: 18:35

And you were much more irritated about how you were feeling, what was happening outside. So any pain is potentially either a cause of a behavior change or something that is making it worse. Not feeling well in general will be. Of course, there are hormonal issues that could be leading to changes of behavior as well, but pain is a big one that I would totally suggest to rule out first as one of the most important things. Then, if you start digging deeper, there are things like canine cognitive dysfunction, for example, and all dogs that can be altering the dog's behavior.

Speaker 2: 19:14

But that's more like a ruling out situation is, like when you have ruled out everything else, you decide that it might be that, but at first I would definitely rule out physical things that could be leading to this change. And once in coming back to your question about medication, so once you have ruled out that the situation isn't medical, or if it was medical, you have addressed it and everything else is clear and you have more transparency, if you will, in terms of what is working and what to do and you know and you can kind of connect the dogs In those cases or when you reach that point. The way I usually think about behavior medication is well. I usually mention it to everybody at first.

Speaker 2: 20:06

It's part of my script in a way, because I want to normalize it, because there's a lot of, there's a lot of fear about around it and there is a lot of thoughts, strong emotions around it and it's important to normalize it because it might be that your dog will need it down the road, even if your dog doesn't need it at the beginning. And so I really have that conversation at first. But then things that made me really suggest it, strongly suggested, are when the dog has more than one behavior challenge at the same time. So if I meet a dog who not only has a professional society but also has confinement issues, productivity, noise, sensitivity, fear of something else, that is a dog that potentially could be a very good candidate for medication, because you can see that the dog is struggling in many fronts, and supporting that and allowing the dog to feel better and increasing the dog's threshold to respond to those things will likely help his quality of life and it will allow him to be successful. So, anyway, if it's a dog who doesn't have any challenges and the only situation that's happening is separation of society, you might get away with not using any medication at first and see where it takes you, you know, and if it works, it works, and if not, maybe at some point down the line, you will have to start incorporating it. And the other.

Speaker 2: 21:36

I usually recommend vacation and again, I don't.

Speaker 2: 21:40

I am not the person who prescribes it, I recommend to a client and then I, you know, I make the link with the veterinarian so we can all work together. But another way of, or an either reason why I would start really paying attention to vacation is if the dog isn't consistent and we can't point out where does that come from. So, because the separation of society, training is, is simple but not easy and it takes a long time and there are a lot of hiccups down the road or along the way, but you usually can point them out to something is like the dog didn't do well in this setup because that is challenging for him, or the dog had a bad day to this and that's why he had this problem or this response. And if you can't really point anything out and you don't know and there's no connections whatsoever, it's just a chaos, then right, it would probably be a good idea to think about medications to create consistency and have a more transparent taste that you can analyze better if you will.

Speaker 1: 22:51

Right, it's kind of like a baseline Exactly To handle.

Speaker 2: 22:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:56

Do we think that dogs who have separation anxiety there's like something. Is there something in their DNA? Is some of that hereditary for a lot of them or is it something? So I mean, I know it's like usually they've experienced something, but you know, even as traumatic as taking a puppy away from you know their mother, you know could be whatever. What triggers that? You know panic, but or is it, yeah, or are so. Are those dogs because they're more, it's something in their DNA that makes them respond to that situation in that way?

Speaker 2: 23:29

Yes, yes, it makes complete sense and we do believe so. So we haven't we don't have the final answer to that, but we do believe that there is a genetic predisposition and that some dogs have it and if they are exposed to certain environmental factors, such as changes, such as traumatizing experiences, they might, those experiences or those environmental factors might trigger the onset of separation anxiety, because many dogs are exposed to those same things and not all of them develop separation anxiety, right, and some dogs, as I was mentioning before, are experiencing it since they they arrive home from, let's say, a reader, let's say like they, since they're separate from their mom, or even before, dad. And also, we have seen connections between mom and, you know, puppies having the same sort of challenge, or siblings having the same sort of challenge. We don't know if it's something that happens in the womb or if it could potentially be, you know, hereditary. Now I do have to say that one of my, my thoughts about it and I have discussed it before with Kim Kim Brophy, and I think it's a very interesting point is that our environment has changed very fast in the last 50 to 80 years, right, and things weren't like this before for our dogs.

Speaker 2: 24:59

They had much more freedom. They weren't left alone most of the time, you know, like families, at least in Chile, not until very long ago. You would live with a lot of generations so your grandparents, your uncles, your aunts or whoever and there was someone in the house it was. The houses were big, were full of people and you know and dogs had more freedom. That changed dramatically and there hasn't been a lot of time for dogs to adapt to that. Not only that, dogs are usually neutered or spayed, so any adaptation to that hasn't been able to pass on to the next generation, which makes you wonder if they're just. It's not that there's an abnormality in their DNA. It's just that their DNA isn't meant for this environment and that's why some dogs aren't able to adapt to it and get triggered by this situation. Just talk.

Speaker 1: 25:59

Yeah, no, that's fascinating. Well, we know we're learning more about spaying and neutering and how. I've had a few veterinarians on to discuss kind of the pros and cons of spaying and neutering and how it affects hormonal changes and how it can affect stops of anxiety and as well as health and wellness.

Speaker 2: 26:16

Exactly, it makes sense right.

Speaker 2: 26:19

And can we talk, excuse me, and I think that it's important for dog guardians, even if they are not professionals in this subject. It is something important to consider because we tend to feel guilty when we're seeing our dogs doing this or having these issues, but we also can feel a little bit angry because they are feeling like that and sometimes we have a hard time understanding. Why aren't you just coping with it and like figuring it out? Are you doing it on purpose? Why can't you just chill, exactly, exactly, and understanding that? Or like I'll just put you in a crate and that will solve it, and understanding that the situation goes way farther?

Speaker 2: 27:08

than that way. Beyond that, and understanding that the dog doesn't have the tools to solve this and that my environment isn't providing what the dog needs and not only my environment, but like taking it personal, but our environment in general I think creates more empathy and I can give us the chance to understand a little bit better what's happening on their end and to make arrangements from an empathy point of view or perspective to help them overcome this challenge. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 27:42

That was kind of an alignment with what my other question was. Are there things that we're doing that could be creating this separation anxiety in dogs that aren't necessarily, that's not necessarily inherent in right? Are there things that we're doing or not doing to create this and not to shame or blame any of? The pet parents, but we unknowingly are creating situations that might you know, increase the anxiety in our environment?

Speaker 2: 28:07

That is also a very, very, very good question, because the answer is yes and no. I think that, in a broad concept and if we look at the big scheme of things, we could or we are, maybe perhaps due to all the things I've mentioned before right Like the environment is sustaining dogs as it was before. Dogs haven't changed much, but we have changed, and all of those things could definitely be impacting their lifestyle. But, on the other hand, doing things that this is very typical from the literature, like a few years ago, from a few years ago, for example, giving our dogs a lot of love, giving our dogs things for free, letting them sleep in the bed with us, all of those things aren't going to create separation, anxiety, and so Thank you for clarifying that. I sleep with my dog. I think that's whatever she wants. Yes, everything for free with the princess and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 29:12

And she doesn't have separation anxiety. That's not going to create it at all. So, if your dog has separation anxiety and also, on the other hand, if your dog has separation anxiety, removing all of those things from the equation isn't going to solve it. Actually, it can even make it worse, because your dog yeah, I was going to say sounds like your dog is going to get super anxious, right and confused, and why aren't you giving all of these things that you used to what's happening? And it's going to create even more stress to top off the other situations. So that's not part of our protocol. You don't have to do any of those changes. You just have to focus on teaching your dog to be left alone in a safe, gradual way.

Speaker 2: 29:54

Now there are things, though, that could potentially lead to a dog not knowing what to expect. For example, when the pandemic hit and nobody was going out, most definitely it could become traumatizing If the dog has the predisposition, though. It could be traumatizing for the dog if you never left him alone for two years and then suddenly you left for eight hours. Right, some dogs will do it and will cope with it, but some dogs won't. So my advice in those cases is, if you are adopting a dog, make sure that you are doing too many things and this is not going to there's no guarantees. This is not going to prevent necessarily separation of society from happening, but it could increase your chances of success.

Speaker 2: 30:39

So the two things one is creating a foundation in terms of structure, in terms of routine, that your dog can hold on to and that works for us humans as well. Right, if you know what to expect, if you have a day that you know that this is going to happen and there's nothing scary, there's nothing unknown, you can deal with it and you can start feeling more comfortable right At home. Like that, you can settle, you can let your guard down. And so I start with that. When I that's my first suggestion when you adopt a dog, and once that dog feels more comfortable, you start slowly adding things that are out of that equation, that are more flexible, that are more unknown, so the dog also learns flexibility, but with a foundation of structure, a foundation of safety. And then you start adding these other things, and one of those things that you start adding is leaving your dog alone.

Speaker 2: 31:44

Leaving your dog alone for not the first day, from nothing to 12 hours, but for 30 minutes and for one hour, baby steps, yeah, and then you maybe get to maybe take vacation when you're going to adopt a dog, you know, or like, have some time and some arrangements that are going to allow you to do this in a gradual way and not just, you know, don't know what you're doing and go crazy about it.

Speaker 1: 32:09

And then See ya, yeah, and feel overwhelmed because nothing is working and you have to move forward right, right, exactly.

Speaker 2: 32:17

And again, sometimes it doesn't work, but it gives you more chances that things are going to go in the right direction. And even if the dog has the genetic predisposition to develop suppression anxiety, if you have a dog who has a hard time finding things traumatizing, because he's very good at tolerating change, because you talked to him to tolerate change in a gradual and positive way, it's less likely that that dog will ever get triggered and have an onset of suppression anxiety, because none of the things that you're throwing his way are traumatizing to trigger it, if that makes sense, mm-hmm. So that's why I like that approach of gradual flexibility in their lives.

Speaker 2: 33:04

And the last thing I want to mention about that is that when you are starting to do absences, you can definitely to keep things safe and to know what's going on.

Speaker 2: 33:15

The best best friend of us nowadays are phones, smartphones or any cameras. Many people already have surveillance cameras, so check what your dog is doing Instead of like wondering what's happening or relying on your neighbor telling you that your dog barked and you know what that bark was about. Just watch your dog and if you see something that it's getting out of your hands and you don't know what it means and you're concerned, stick, help right. But if you see everything is going well, that will give you peace of mind to keep moving forward in two longer directions and knowing that things are safe.

Speaker 1: 33:53

That's perfect. Yeah, even if you're just starting off with like five to ten minutes, you can go around the corner and watch your dog and see how they handle that five and ten minutes, just because you're not hearing them barking or scratching or anything. If they're pacing or starting to pant or super confused, it's like you can gauge what your next steps from there. So that is a fantastic idea. Exactly and very easy. It's very easy, very easy. You can even like if you don't have a camera.

Speaker 2: 34:23

You can just put your phone there and record and then just watch the recording. It's not a big deal. We all have smartphones at this point in life, or most of us, yeah so it's very easy to set it up.

Speaker 2: 34:35

And you're right Like it gives you the chance to decide what to do next, and in some cases, a couple of things you know, linked to what you were mentioning, is the first one if you see your dog reacting and you see that as your dog reacts, like a few minutes pass and that reaction starts pacing out pacing, you know, and becoming less often and less intense, you might determine that your dog is actually adapting to being left alone and it's first reacting. It's a stress response Like is this a flight or fight situation? Is this threatening, life threatening? Oh, I guess not. I guess this is okay, I'm just going to settle. That's a dog without separation anxiety, who has the tools to cope with the situation. It's just that he never was exposed to it before or didn't know how to Right.

Speaker 1: 35:34

So he's like what am I supposed to do here in this situation? All right, well, I don't know, so I'm just going to go for it Exactly, and that might look not perfect.

Speaker 2: 35:39

It might go to like a little bit body at the beginning, but you will see the trend or where the curve goes right, Whether, if you see your dog reacting and nonstop and escalating, getting worse with the passing of the minutes, you know that that's not okay. And the other thing because this is something that a lot of the people who get to me have tried in the past and so I know it's a very common mistake. I don't want to, I don't like it to call it a mistake, but a common thing that people do is doing this trial by going out of the house and staying outside the door or staying in the car that the dog can see through the window, for example, and that could work. But it also could lead to something we call FOMO or fear of missing out, which is that the dog can see you're there.

Speaker 1: 36:31

But I know or smell you, yeah, the dog can't reach you, and so they start.

Speaker 2: 36:35

They know you're there Exactly.

Speaker 1: 36:37

It's like why are you doing there? This is weird. Why is she like right outside the door? This is very weird. Like, open the door, let me go out, and so you might see it as separation anxiety.

Speaker 2: 36:51

But then if you do the same trial and you actually go away, the dog is like oh, I guess you're gone, I'm just going to go relax, and then you will rule out. Coming back to the beginning, when we were talking about separation related behaviors, that's another underlying cause the fear of missing out and so you will be able to rule out which one of those two it is, and the treatment is completely different, you know based on which one it is. So that's an important thing to consider. Different training with training you definitely start outside the door, but that's another totally different story. But for assessment purposes, okay, so you just drive away and act naturally not like a robot, yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:42

Briefly, what what I mean? I'm sure this might be obvious to people, but if their dog has having severe separation anxiety, what does that look like? Severe is a very Because that's it can get very dangerous. Yeah, severe is a very For the dog, mostly For the dog. For the dog it's not a big deal, it's probably.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Severe is an interesting term and an interesting concept, because and I have a video on my YouTube channel that is people will laugh if you watch it, but I think it really, it really explains that point and it really it makes it very clear.

Speaker 2: 38:21

I'll play that later I'll be quick, it's fine, everybody will laugh. But what happens is that severity. Severity or intensity, it's a very it's a word that is hard to. It depends on the perspective of the of the person who, or the dog, was experiencing it. So I can say that something is severe because the science seems severe to me, but that doesn't mean that for the dog who isn't showing those signs is less severe. So there are dogs who will just sit quietly and wine quietly in a corner of the house and will shut down, and that doesn't look severe because the dog isn't trying to jump through the two story windows.

Speaker 2: 39:08

second, story window yeah, but that is still severe because the dog is having a hard time. So who?

Speaker 2: 39:15

who says what is severe and what is not, which leads us to understand, to to determine that all cases are, in a way, emergencies, because the the subject of the problem or the situation is having a very hard time no matter how they express it Right Now, there is this severity scale in the sense of what you were mentioning like if this is dangerous, right, Like if, if the dog is climbing the window and jumping off, or you know, I had one case once that the dog was jumping on the stove and had, a couple of times managed to turn the handle of the gas.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Basically, or you know, they, you know like not not to start a fire but, to you know, could get intoxicated and poison them. So those things definitely are scary and are dangerous, but again, don't with those. One of the things I see a lot is and it's unfortunate for this particular subject or field of study is that when it doesn't represent an issue for us humans, we tend to not put it in an emergency scale of what, what is the next thing we have to do. And so there are many dogs who suffer for years because they never did something that caused a problem to the house or to the neighbors or to anybody, and until they don't start really doing things that affect everybody else, that situation doesn't get addressed Whether an aggressive dog, for example, aggression is something that it's, it's seen as an emergency because it's actually causing a problem to third parties, and so that's why it's important to don't wait until that happens to help your dog.

Speaker 2: 41:03

help your dog. Even if you see that there are signs that your dog is having a hard time, you know, and definitely in any of those cases, whether it looks very horrible or it doesn't look very horrible. I think seeking help is very important. Help from a professional is very important because the journey is a long one, and not only you will benefit from someone who will coach you throughout the whole journey and will know how to adjust the criteria so your dog can succeed, because there are going to be ups and downs, regressions and plateaus, and going through all of those isn't necessarily easy, but also you will find that having someone who can help you will keep your motivation up when you feel like you want to quit.

Speaker 2: 41:57

Now, having said that, there are different and I have one, actually, but there are different ways to do it yourself programs out there that you can also oh, you have one. That's great, because there are people I mean. I am that kind of person. That's why I created one. I love to learn things of my own and I follow tutorials, and if that's who you are, that's the type of person you are, there are. There are, of course, options for you as well, but most of those programs are linked to someone, a professional, that can help you. If you feel like you need extra support, like if you need a meeting with a person because you want to make sure that you are going in the right direction, you usually can access help from the same person who hosted or created whichever course you are taking. But don't wait and don't just rely on what your neighbor or your friend told you, because most of those things are unfortunately outdated and following a simple plan is going to make your life much easier.

Speaker 1: 42:58

In addition to your what you offer online what's, and you also do virtual consultations.

Speaker 2: 43:07

Everything is done virtual.

Speaker 1: 43:08

Yeah, yeah. So everything is done virtual. That's amazing. So all over, just so you can do it globally.

Speaker 2: 43:12

Essentially, right All over the world. Fantastic, and Spanish and in English, so everybody's got a real good.

Speaker 1: 43:18

Fantastic, if someone was looking for someone and, for whatever reason, they couldn't get in touch with you, what are there any specifics? What should they be looking for in the person that they're wanting to get?

Speaker 2: 43:35

Yes.

Speaker 2: 43:36

How do they know they're getting somebody who can help them in the correct way, so most beneficial way, I think that for and this is not only for separation anxiety, but in general unfortunately you probably have mentioned, I've had this conversation before with other professionals in your podcast this is an unregulated industry, right? So everybody can call themselves a dog trainer, which makes things hard for guardians, because you don't really know if you're getting something that is safe and that is professional or not. And so, although it is not officially regulated, there are a lot of different institutions, organizations and credentials that most of us have right, or professionals who are good professionals will seek, and so I do recommend to go to those places to find our organizations that will usually have like a search engine in their website where you can find people who are A trainer yeah, who have credentials or have a certificate from them, and make your homework. I could start like mentioning different institutions, but instead of doing that, my advice would be just do your homework before you hire someone and check about who am I and check for different certifications and go and type the certification in Google and read about it, so you can make sure that who you're hiring is a person who knows what they're doing. And in regards to separation anxiety, well, I'm a CSAT.

Speaker 2: 45:19

A CSAT means Certified Separation Anxiety Trainer it's C-S-A-T, and those the ones who are CSAT have been trained to do separation anxiety very deeply.

Speaker 2: 45:36

They're all people who have an extensive dog training career behind them and then they have jumped into this credential and it's a long course that you have to take on all that, so it really gives you a good information about it. Having said that, though, there are different ones. There's a separation anxiety pro is another certification, and I think those are the two main certifications. But there are a lot of people who like separation anxiety and have done studies like I have students, colleagues who are students, who have taken courses with me, and they have separation anxiety clients and they're very good professionals and when they feel like they need extra support, they actually have meetings with someone, for example, lee, to help their clients. So that's why don't have like a tunnel vision speaking to the gardens out there, but seek people who do have credentials and certain letters after their name, because even if they are not CSATs or separation anxiety pros, they're likely doing their homework and have some resources to help you or point you in the right direction.

Speaker 2: 46:47

Many of them will tell you I don't do this, but go to this person who does it, and that way you can get there.

Speaker 1: 46:56

I will try to put some links in the show notes as well to some of those. Yeah, at least the ones in the US. I'm not familiar with the credentials like globally, so that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 47:05

I understand Very hard, very complicated, but you know it's in everything, like you know coming in I can only give my own example but, as me, I love, as I've mentioned before, to learn, like online and tutorials, and sometimes I don't know anything about the thing that I'm trying to learn, but just going through all the letters that the person has after their name and searching those letters and what they mean, it really helps you understand.

Speaker 2: 47:36

Kind of critical, to think about who you're hiring and if it seems okay or not. And if then and this is a general advice for dog training if you hire someone and when you are in your consultation, you don't feel comfortable about what they're trying to tell you to do, always follow your gut and that's why I always tell to my client that's important. Yes, like you are the person who is, you're the only person who can advocate for your dog. You're the best person to advocate for your dog. So if you don't feel comfortable, what would you have to do? Get a second opinion first, but don't do it because someone is telling you and that's it Right, because I mean you don't know and you know best. Like that, your gut will never lie to you. That's very important.

Speaker 1: 48:26

Yeah, you've been my whole life. No, but that's very important. That's very important. You are the one advocating for your dog's health and wellness, so you are the one in charge. So you don't don't be bullied by anybody yes, anybody who might tell you otherwise.

Speaker 2: 48:44

And medically even. You know because, like and I think it's important to add to the conversation about your medical issues is that you are the one who lives with your dog 24 seven. When your dog changes, you know, you don't know. You might not know what it is because you don't have the knowledge the veteran in knowledge to to make the connection, but you know that something is right. So if you go to your regular practitioner to do to your vet and you tell them this is something wrong and your vet says, no, everything is fine, but you still feel there is something wrong, it's just a second opinion, it's totally fine, it's totally fine. You're not doing anything wrong because you know that there's something wrong.

Speaker 2: 49:31

And I have the blessing of working with my clients every day. So my protocols, my daily support protocols, are protocols where we work every day and I have a client I was seeing just before I jumping with you today. I've been working with her for three years and every day. So we know her dog and she knows her dog and in in. So you can see a lot of things that your vet that sees your dog 10 minutes, my miss. And it's not because they're bad, it's just because they don't have the amount of exposure you have or your trainer has when, when you know seeing your dog every day.

Speaker 2: 50:12

So if you think that something is happening, just you know, believe it and and, and, find out, and dig, dig, dig until you find what it is.

Speaker 1: 50:23

Absolutely, it's so important. Thank you, moira. Do you have anything else that you want to add? I want to reiterate one thing that you just said, and I think when you said you've been working for someone just really quickly for three years, people might be like what? But and I'm not saying this applies to every situation but how do you set really quickly, realistic expectations with your clients? Like, how do you set you know, understanding that it takes patience and it takes commitment and it takes time. You know, and you briefly mentioned it, but how do you reiterate that with them? People want to fix.

Speaker 2: 51:01

Exactly. I don't know if I've ever done any personal review about that. Hopefully.

Speaker 1: 51:06

I'll try.

Speaker 2: 51:07

Sorry, I know, but yes, that's a typical question, right, like? People get to say, well, how long it's going to take. So I'm going to tell you two things. One is that I tell everybody this example. I tell them well, let's say, you have a phobia of something, you're afraid, like. I always give my own example I'm afraid of moths, those big fat ones that are not fat, but I am afraid of them, and so they don't look very pretty for the old like sorry, sorry, moths, you're not going to.

Speaker 2: 51:43

What happens is that what if you are afraid, let's say, of moths or think about whatever is that? You're afraid, very afraid, and you are going to your therapist because you want to, you know, get over this fear. You want to be able to overcome it and you go there and you tell your therapist I want to work on this. But let me tell you from the beginning I only have three months, because in three months I'm going to go to the rainforest and I'm going to be staying. I'm going to stay in a cabin for a month and I'll be exposed to a million of moths and I need to be okay with it. Yeah, what do you think your therapist is going to tell?

Speaker 1: 52:20

you, your therapist is going to tell you I don't know how long it's going to take you on.

Speaker 2: 52:24

No, it's not my problem, it's yours, right? Yeah, because this is not math, this is not something that we can structure. This is not teaching a dog to sit or lay down. This is an emotional disorder and there's going to be a lot of things involved that might affect the outcome, where this environment, the dog's plasticity to learn and adapt, medications and medical issues, your participation and commitment, right. So it is going to take as long as it takes and sometimes that is three years and sometimes that is months and there's no really a timeline that we can give or guarantee.

Speaker 2: 53:02

However and this is second and last thing, in the big scheme of things, what if it takes you one year? Let's say your dog is two years old and it takes you one year, and by the time that your dog is three years, you're able to leave your dog alone all day, or six hours, or five hours, no problem, and from then on, forever, for the rest of your dog's days. Yeah, it doesn't sound that horrible anymore, right, it's worth it, and we understand that when we work out and want results or when we learn anything. If you want to learn a language, you know you're not going to learn it in a month, and that's okay, right.

Speaker 2: 53:42

Of course, there are considerations that we have to keep in mind. If your dog is old and your dog isn't healthy, yes, you might want to ponder and make a list of pros and cons and decide what is better to just manage the situation, for it to keep your dog safe or to actually work on it. And it's very valid and we do it every time and on every individual but in general, if your dog is healthy and younger, it's totally worth it, even if it takes long, and it's going to give you so much happiness, not only to your dog but to you, to be able to go out free of anxiety, free of fear, and your dog is going to be free of fear and anxiety. So everybody who I have asked that when a head has taken that long, they tell me that it changed their lives. So, yeah, I think it's worth it.

Speaker 1: 54:37

It's absolutely worth it, thank you so much I'm so appreciate this conversation. Now you can take your dog for a walk, although it looks like she may have just given up on that idea.

Speaker 2: 54:45

She gave up, but some were woke up. This is the day you're smiling.

Speaker 1: 54:48

Oh no, now you're cats up, he's the day you're smiling, so he's a nighttime prowler.

Speaker 2: 54:55

I'm going to start crawling on me and like okay, you're done, Talk to me now All right.

Speaker 1: 55:02

well, you have your hands full. I so appreciate this, Moira. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 55:07

Thank you for your invitation. I appreciate being here. I had a little fun.

Speaker 1: 55:15

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Baroo Podcast. As always, I have put links in the show notes to some of the things that we chatted about today, as well as the link for Moira's website if you are interested in contacting her, and it also has some really great information up there. So if you enjoyed the episode, please don't forget to rate and follow the Baroo wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow on Instagram at Baroo Podcast, and if you have a story of Canine companionship that you'd like to share with me, or a question or even a comment, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, charlotte, at thebarroucom. All right, you guys, let's chat soon.