"Small Dog Syndrome" with Irith Bloom

Discover the truth behind "small dog syndrome" with esteemed professional dog trainer Irith Bloom .  Irith joins me to debunk the myths surrounding our diminutive canine companions. Excessive barking? Indoor marking? It's time to understand what's really going on with your pint-sized pooch. From dissecting the peculiarities of their bathroom habits to addressing behavior misconceptions, this episode promises to transform your perspective on the unique needs of small dogs . Spoiler alert: It's all about fostering a nurturing relationship that respects your dog's individuality while ensuring they're well-equipped to navigate the world around them.

Irith is a CPDT-KSA, a CBCC-KA, a CDBC, a KPA CTP, a VSPDT, and a CBATI. She is also faculty at both Victoria Stilwell Dog Training Academy and DogBiz’s Dog Walking Academy,and she's certified in TAGteach, a positive reinforcement method for teaching humans. She is on the board of the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT), and Chair Emeritus of the Education Committee of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers (APDT).


Useful Links:
https://thesophisticateddog.com/
https://awesomedogproject.com/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

always lovely to have you on the podcast for our annual podcast episode. Today we are going to discuss small dogs and small dog syndrome. Is it a real thing? And you know some of the things that we encounter with our small dogs that we all love and think that are adorable. So I guess my first question for you is is small dog syndrome a real thing and what does it actually mean? I think it's a phrase that we kind of like throw around a bit.

Speaker 2: 0:28

Yeah, it is one of those phrases. So first of all, I just want to say it is always a pleasure being here, thank you for having me, always good to talk to you and about small dog syndrome. Anytime someone says syndrome and it isn't an actual medical diagnosis, you should take a step back and say, yeah, this probably isn't as simple as they're making it sound. So like people talk a lot about littermate syndrome, which is this sort of cluster of behaviors, you'll see if you get two dogs who came from the same litter, who were born in the same litter and I'm not saying that there aren't issues with taking two dogs who were born in the same litter, depending on how you do things. But the idea that there is a littermate syndrome is not actually in any way based in science. And I'd say the same thing about small dog syndrome. There's no scientific basis for a notion that all small dogs are going to behave this particular way and they have this thing, this syndrome, called small dog syndrome.

Speaker 2: 1:33

Now, I think when people talk about small dog syndrome, they're talking about a couple of things. They're talking about being kind of barky, which I think many small dogs are a little more likely to bark than many large dogs, but it depends on the individual and it depends on the breed, so there's a lot of factors in there that can change how much a small dog barks. And then there's this sort of notion of them, I think, protecting their own space a lot, and that I actually find can be true, because if you are one fifth or one tenth the size of everything that's going on around you, you kind of go through life worried about getting stepped on, stumbled over, kicked, you know just something. And so I think that some small dogs do learn to like let people know hey, I'm right here, these are my boundaries, don't don't like step on me or something. And it actually reminds me of I have a friend who is paraplegic, so she's in a wheelchair and when she's in a crowd people don't see her Right Because she's. When you sit in a wheelchair, you are lower down than the average person's height, and so when she is going through a crowd she's actually really loud. She'll be like hi, coming through, I'm here.

Speaker 2: 2:56

And so I think that some of times the small dogs are doing something like that. They're like nobody sees me, nobody hears me, nobody knows I'm here. So I need to talk a little louder and make my presence felt, but not all small dogs do that. I know small dogs who never do that at all. So it's clearly depends on the individual. But those are some of the things I think of for small dog syndrome. How about you? What do you think people mean?

Speaker 1: 3:22

Well, for I know for you, know for me, when I have, you know, big dogs and small dogs that I take care of, and I usually try not to generalize, but I do find that a lot of my small dogs, yes, are barky, barkier than the bigger dogs. I find that they often pee in the house, more than my bigger dogs. They often will come into, like if they're sleeping over at my house, they'll just come in and pee, you know, whereas my big dogs would never do that, I won't say never, unless there's usually a medical issue happening. Will they potty, you know, in the house? And three?

Speaker 1: 4:00

So they're barky, so they're three, they tend to do things like jump. I mean, even I had a dog stay with me the other day and he just jumped on the dining room table and I was like, well, this is new, you know, they just tend to be have less impulse control, I would say, than my larger dogs. And I'll stand, as I said before, more vocal is obviously the key thing that we, that we think of when we think of our small dogs. So I know my friends with smart dogs are definitely very on guard at, one would say, all the time. So that's what I think of.

Speaker 2: 4:39

So you know and it's interesting now that you said it the house training is one I do run across a lot. Yes, okay, and the sort of they're jumping onto things where your big dog might not, that kind of thing. I think both the house training and the seeming to have less impulse control and going here, there and everywhere, whether they're supposed to or not, I think both of those things are a factor of how people treat them. So I think that, like I meet a lot of clients who come to me, it's usually usually like hey, my significant other is about to move in, or I'm about to have a baby, or I've just put in new carpet, and and then they suddenly want to change the dog's house training and the dog's rule structure and the end. And I'm like they don't know how old is the dog five years old and the dog's been jumping on the couch this whole time. Yes, and the dog's been peeing on the couch this whole time. Yes, and I think that what happens is something that if you have a great day and your great day is peeing or pooping in the wrong place, yeah, you are going to notice, it's going to bother you, it's going to be big and smelly and you're going to want to nip that in the bud right away. But I think sometimes with small dogs, when they do these kinds of things, you kind of wave it off. You're like, well, you know, I mean, it's just a little tiny bit of pittle, I can clean that up, it's just a teeny, teeny piece of poop. And so they actually never bother to really set up sort of boundaries in a positive way. You can set up boundaries in a positive way, but they never set up those boundaries and guidelines for the small dogs, like they sort of naturally wind up doing with a bigger dog. And then you add to that.

Speaker 2: 6:29

To go back to the house training specifically, small dogs have smaller bladders, smaller bowels. They can't hold it for as long. So there's, there's also a little extra difficulty house training them. So it's generally on average easier to house train a large dog than a small dog, just because they can.

Speaker 2: 6:51

A large dog can hold it for longer, naturally because they have more space to hold it in their body. That's just how their bladder and their bowels work. So I think that between those two things, between the oh, it's just a little Oopsy accident and it takes a little extra effort to house train a small dog. A lot of people don't bother. So it's not that the dogs can't be house trained, it's that nobody ever bothered. It's not that the dogs couldn't learn to stay off the couch, it's that nobody ever taught them that there was a worthwhile place to stay next to the couch, on their bed, on the floor. So I wouldn't say so much that they have less impulse control although that might be the result but more that nobody's ever bothered to help them strengthen their impulse control.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Okay, so it's more in most cases a like a learned behavior or a lack of learning the right behaviors, versus just like in their, you know, dna. Essentially right.

Speaker 2: 7:49

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good way to just being a small dog.

Speaker 1: 7:53

Yeah Are there breeds that are more prone to those kind of things.

Speaker 2: 7:59

Okay, so the first thing I'm going to say is there are definitely breed tendencies. I find the dogs that tend not to be house trained are usually your sort of longish haired lap dog type, small dogs Like. I'm more likely to see this with, say I hate to call out specific breeds kind of mean, but like with, say, a shih tzu, then I am with, say, a Jack Russell terrier. It's like I think people treat them a little differently. But I also think that these lap dogs may have and I know someone's going to come back and be like shih tzu are not just lap dogs and that's true, but that's how we treat them in this country mostly. And so I think that there may also be some differences in how they're bred.

Speaker 2: 8:52

And you know, people expect a Jack Russell to be willing and able to go out and catch a rat. People are not raising their you know, trying to think of another Maltese to go out and catch rats, even though a Maltese probably could, but that's not what they're raising them to do. And so when they're bred, they're bred to be these sort of like what's the word? I want To be sort of sweet and easygoing and like to be cuddled, and I think maybe when we're breeding for that, we don't breed as much for the. I'm going to really pay attention to where I'm peeing and pooping and think a lot about what the rules are.

Speaker 2: 9:33

So, there may be some genetic factors that go in there, along with the size and how the dogs are treated, but I rarely meet a Jack Russell who isn't house trained. I mean lots of Jack Russell's who jump on couches, that's a separate issue. But I don't meet a lot of Jack Russell's who are not properly house trained. But I meet a lot of Maltese and Shih Tzu's who are not properly house trained. So does that come from the breed they're in and some genetic predisposition maybe? Or does it come from the breed they're in and they're being treated differently? That's another possibility. So I'm not sure which it is. But I will say, if you have one of those little fluffy lap dog types, you might have to think a little more carefully. Maybe people just forgive them more because they're so adorable, but in either case you need to think more carefully about it, because small dogs can absolutely be house trained, absolutely. I've helped a million people.

Speaker 1: 10:32

Well, okay, not a million but you know what I mean. I've helped quite a many people house trains.

Speaker 2: 10:37

Yes, I've helped a lot of people house trained small dogs who were not house trained until they were several years old. So if it's an adult dog and it's not house trained, you can still fix it. You can still make the situation better. So, yeah, and the jumping on things same thing. You just need to set up barriers, teach them where they're supposed to be, where they're not supposed to be. But it's a lot harder to get the genie back in the bottle when the dogs already learn to jump all over furniture or jump on people or whatever else it is.

Speaker 1: 11:12

Right, you mentioned that you think that possibly small dogs can't hold their urine as long as larger dogs, and what does that mean? Timing wise, is there a way to tell how long your dog, your small dog, can hold their urine, or is that just something out of the process of elimination, for the lack of better term?

Speaker 2: 11:36

Like there.

Speaker 1: 11:38

see what I did there. I really didn't mean to do that that. You learn how long they can hold it Because there's a general rule of thumb when you're potty training that for every month well, at least a puppy like your dog can hold what is it like for every month of life. They can hold it for a certain amount of time, or something like that, until a certain age, right, yeah, how does that shift for, or does it for, our small dogs, or maybe that we don't know?

Speaker 2: 12:09

So that's a great question. The first thing I'm going to say is I'm always suspicious of those kinds of guidelines because there's so much individual variation. The rule I generally hear is they can hold it for an hour for every month of age. But I'm like, yeah, but one month old dogs can't hold it for an hour and many two month old dogs can't hold it for two hours. So I tend to be really conservative.

Speaker 2: 12:34

So if I have a dog who isn't, so whether it's an adult or a puppy, for that matter if I have an adult excuse me, a dog that isn't house trained and I want to house train that dog, I start by assuming they can't hold it at all. And I want to point something out, which is that there's a difference between holding it, like knowing how to hold it, and being able to hold it. So some dogs could probably hold it longer, but they don't think of it. So, like dogs who have always had indoor, outdoor access to the yard, for instance, often if they get stuck indoors they have no idea how to hold it. It's like they haven't worked that challenge in their mind and in their body.

Speaker 1: 13:22

So that's, one thing that's good to learn. I think that's the case for the majority of the little dogs that I work with, because they have, you know, someone's usually home housekeeper or whatnot, and the doors like open to the backyard. So that's just kind of. They always know to go outside, right and so, and then when they're with me they're just like. I think that's absolutely true.

Speaker 2: 13:41

So there is this process of learning to hold it like learning. You can tolerate feeling like this for 15 minutes, for 30 minutes, for an hour before you get to go outside. So that's part of the process. But having said that, while I think so, I've known large dogs who can hold it for 12 hours. No dog should be asked to do that ever. That's way too long. But I've known large dogs who can.

Speaker 2: 14:08

I doubt a small dog would stay physically healthy if they were consistently having to hold it for 12 hours at a time. I don't think it's great for the large dogs' health either. Small dogs, I usually assume even as adults, even when they're fully house trained, they need a potty outing once about every four hours. I would like to see large dogs get a potty outing every four hours, but if you didn't get them out in time, they'll probably be okay. For small dogs, especially the really teeny ones, like four hours is like two days of holding it for them. So some of it depends on the dog's size and you can sort of make some guesses, but then once you look at the individual dog, the best way to figure this out really is to just take notes. She drank at three o'clock and she peed at 3.15. Or she drank at three o'clock and she didn't pee until five. Or she drank at three o'clock and she didn't ask to go out at all, but then she had an accident at six. All of those things. If you can just literally for a week, you only need to follow your dog for a week to start figuring this out. Basically, you just follow the dog, follow, not necessarily literally follow, but pay attention to the dog's habits for a week and then you'll know. Oh, you know what. I'd better take them out every 30 minutes and then, once you get to the point where I'm just saying, for example, which is actually what I recommend for puppies is every 30 minutes, but that's a side note.

Speaker 2: 15:39

Small dogs, that's also where I'd start. Adult, larger dogs, I'd start with maybe 45 minutes to an hour, depending on the size. So I go out every 30 minutes. The dog either potties or doesn't, and then I supervise the dog until the next time I take them out. If I notice them start to potty, I make sure I get them outside. Then I start to notice they never potty at 2 pm or 2.30 or 3, but they always potty at 3.30.

Speaker 2: 16:04

Okay, so then how about we skip the outing? So they didn't potty at 2.30. Sorry, I said 230 or three, but they potty at three. So I take them out at two and then I skip the 230 and then I take them out at three and see what happens. I don't push all the way, I push partway and, oh look, they didn't pee at three and they peed at 330 again. Okay, so now I'm going to say I take them out at two and I'm going to wait until 330. And sure enough, they hold it from two to 330 and they pee at 330. Now I'm starting to get some answers.

Speaker 2: 16:36

So, but the key is in the beginning to say to the dog I'm going to take you out on a regular basis, but in between I'm also going to watch and you can either put them, if they're crate trained, you can put them in a crate so that they don't potty when you're not watching them, or you just keep an eye on them and look for those circling and sniffing behaviors.

Speaker 2: 17:00

But the bottom line is, look up a good sort of house training guide and pretend the dog knows nothing, and that's where you start. But having said that, to get back to the main question, I do think that with small dogs, I will often ask people to take them out a little more often. I think it's great if small dogs can get out every two to three hours If you have a tiny dog like I. Have a client who has three dogs who are all under four pounds there are potty pads out all the time and all the dogs are potty pad trained so that way if she has to leave and go shopping, she doesn't have to worry that if she gets stuck in traffic on the way home, the dogs don't have an option.

Speaker 1: 17:48

Right, that's great. What about marking? Do you think little dogs do more marking than big dogs?

Speaker 2: 17:59

I think this is another one of those. We let them get away with it and we don't try to resolve the issue. Almost all the dogs I know who mark indoors and it is like where it's marking and not just I have to pee?

Speaker 1: 18:13

Yeah, I have a. I think I have a few. They are almost always small dogs. Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, interesting.

Speaker 2: 18:21

Yeah, but I think it's because people didn't bother to house train them properly and this was the thing that they let slip. So marking is a house training problem. It is not some kind of dominance thing.

Speaker 1: 18:36

That's what I wanted to clarify, yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:38

Yeah, so marking is a house training issue. Now I will say there are certain things that can trigger more marking, like if you have a strange animal come into your house and by strange I don't necessarily mean that it's really weird, I just mean like someone else brings their dog, or you have a friend with a cat, or you have a friend with a ferret or whatever. Sometimes dogs like they smell that and then they it's almost like they're compelled to pee on the smell.

Speaker 1: 19:10

Yes.

Speaker 2: 19:13

So I'll see this with dogs, where they're perfectly house trained. They visited like 15 different people's houses, everything's great. Then they walk into the house where someone has a cat and they pee on the cat litter or they pee on the cat bed and it's like, oh, this smell is so strange, I don't know what to do. I guess I'll pee on it. And again, it's just a house training mistake. To have the inclination to pee on something is different from then choosing to actually do it, which is the same as oh, I kind of need to pee. If you think about basic house training, right, I kind of need to pee. I guess I'll just pee, as opposed to I kind of need to pee, but I'll wait till the human takes me out so we can teach them to control that impulse and not mark. Having said that, I know one dog who belonged to an expert expert trainer who I knew, who used to breed sorry, this is just funny. So I have to say this out loud she bred Dobermans and Yorkies.

Speaker 1: 20:12

It is funny.

Speaker 2: 20:13

Quite the combination. So we always had like half a dozen Yorkies in her home, because they all they lived in her home. She separated them when the females were in heat. She only bred when she was a very responsible breeder, kept the Dobermans apart from the Yorkies when the Yorkies were in heat, and vice versa, and all of that. But she had this one male of her nine Yorkies that she had at the time who, no matter what she did, she could not stop him from marking, and so for him she got a belly band which is like a diaper right.

Speaker 2: 20:47

It's like a male diaper.

Speaker 1: 20:49

Yeah. Some senior dogs that I know have worn those, yeah, interesting.

Speaker 2: 20:56

And the great thing about that is then you don't have the cleanup, you don't have the smell and none of the other dogs in the house are like, oh well, somebody potted over here, so this must be a bathroom.

Speaker 1: 21:06

Right, I think that's what tends to happen. They're like oh, we're doing this over here.

Speaker 2: 21:09

All right, let's do it over here Exactly. They're like yay, somebody opened the new bathroom, yeah, so, yeah, so the marking. I would say go back and say when is it happening, where is it happening, block access to that area, take the dog out at those times, and then the thing that I will encourage everyone to do is let your dog mark on walks. Yes, okay.

Speaker 1: 21:34

That was going to be my next question.

Speaker 2: 21:34

People have it in their heads.

Speaker 1: 21:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:37

Yeah, people have it in their heads. If I let my dog mark on walks, he's going to mark indoors, and I actually find it's the exact opposite. If you don't let them have a legal and appropriate outlet for the marking Xire or whatever the right word is that they're gonna let that out in some other way. So give them an opportunity to bark where they're supposed to praise and treat them when they mark on walks. Like Charlotte, my dog, franklin.

Speaker 2: 22:05

Franklin thought that walks were basically all about your leg forty times and sniffing various things didn't matter. If you ran out of P, you still lifted your leg totally, and they really like their. They like to mark. Great, here's the context where you mark. It's like football, you know, sorry, it's, it's, it's the playoffs. Yeah, you're not supposed to go around tackling people. Yeah, and if you're a football player, you shouldn't do that off the field. But on the field you're allowed to tackle people.

Speaker 2: 22:42

So do we think that by teaching football players to tackle other people, we're gonna make them tackle people in other situations? Right? Not usually, I mean. I'm not saying that never happen, but for the vast majority of them they understand. This is where I get to let out this particular kind of aggression or this particular kind of behavior. So same thing with the dogs who mark. They want to mark. Let them do the marking somewhere that is appropriate, and you can even praise and feed them a treat for doing that, so that it's more valuable to mark outside and then block access to wherever they're marking or take them out at times when they would normally mark indoors.

Speaker 1: 23:21

I wanted to ask. I wanted to bring up just really briefly, like so marking. It's not really related, but it's like. Well, it's really talking about marking but For some people still don't, may not understand why a dog marks. Can we just clarify what marking is like? In my mind, it is leaving a message for all the dogs in the neighborhood, or, as my mom would call it, leaving a P mail right, so, yes, the word female. What is that? You know? Is that Fact, or do we not know 100% why dogs mark?

Speaker 2: 23:55

We don't know, we really don't know. So people who study canine behavior they're called the ethologists have theories about why dogs leave sent, but honestly, there's no species where we've been able to completely tease out why they're doing it. The strong theories that I think you know, or the hypotheses I should be more precise, the strong hypotheses that are out there are that Animals that mark whether that's a lion scraping their claws down a tree, because that leaves sense, because they've got sent in the pads of their hands, so to speak. Or you know, a dog peeing on a pole, or a bear Rubbing against something and leaving a little bit of sent in skin. That way bears do all kinds of really cool rubbing behavior is just a side note, but that's beside the point.

Speaker 2: 24:56

Yeah, all of those behaviors were not 100% sure why they're there. What we do know is that, functionally, what they do is they let another animal know that that animal has been there. So other animals are picking up the messages, right, but I'm not sure if the animal who left the message realize that someone else would pick up the message or if they just sort of intuitively they're like oh, pole, I should leave my set here right now I have a theory about marking myself that I don't mark.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Not right dogs are not marking me sorry, I myself.

Speaker 2: 25:32

Have a theory about marking, which is which relates to why dogs tend to mark when they're anxious or right after an anxious situation. So if you watch two dogs meeting on leash which is super unnatural for dogs, but that's a side note A lot of times what you'll see is you'll see the dogs. They do like their little sniffing routine. Everybody does the little like. They banana around each other, they sniff each other's butts and then, as soon as they move on, both dogs go and pee on something. So I think that there could be two things going on there. I think one is that they just get a little excited in their physiologically a little bit more up, and so they feel the need to be more. But the other thing could be that they've learned that peeing makes them feel better, which it does right. It's reinforcing to pee. We feel better after we pee because we were feeling Full and now we're comfortable, right.

Speaker 2: 26:26

So I think sometimes they're like I'm really anxious, I need to do something to relieve this anxiety, and somewhere in their brain they know that being makes them feel better, so they pee. I think the same thing might have to do with the smells of other things in like like oh, I smelled a cat. I'm gonna pee on that like I don't quite know what to do with that. It's interesting, I'll pee on it Right now. One of the areas of research that I'd love to see develop is what dogs actually notice about the urine that they're smelling like. Do they know their pee from somebody else's pee? And they're starting to do research on these things? Interesting, so yeah, so more will be known, hopefully within a few years to be continued.

Speaker 1: 27:09

yeah, yes well, let's move on to barking, because I know my little guys, they, they, you know, some of them just go bananas, like out on walks or even in the house. You know, it just seems like they're all the height and senses like the stranger danger, and Some just bark to bark, as you said, to be seen. But it seems like some bring it like in a way that is, it seems like either they're some, some, some owner, some pet parents would say that their dogs are protecting them, that they're, you know, on the defense to protect their owner. I would say they just seem super scared and like freaked out by everything and over, like whelmed. Do you find that to be true or what's your take on barking?

Speaker 2: 28:05

So Barking is complicated and it's gonna really depend on the dog, and I will say right now that there are some dogs that only bark when they're human. Is there?

Speaker 1: 28:16

Yes, I do know that there's two.

Speaker 2: 28:19

There's two, two variations of that. One is the. I bark when someone approaches me and I'm standing next to my human, which almost feels like they're guarding the human a little right, and that may be what's happening Not sure, because I can't ask the dog Right. Then there's the. I only bark when my human is around because I know that when I bark my human Looks at me or talks to me or yells at me yeah or comes over to me, all of which is attention, and I've learned to bark for attention.

Speaker 2: 28:49

So I only bark when the human is there.

Speaker 2: 28:52

So that kind of barking, like sometimes I do think that the dog is, it's, if it's a guarding behavior, which is hard to tease out because, like I said, I can't actually say to the dog Lie down on the couch, tell me about your mother and tell me if you're barking because you're guarding your human. Yeah, I can't do any of that. So I mean I can get them to lie down on the couch, maybe. Right, that's about it. Yeah, so For those dogs who bark when someone approaches their human, or maybe they growl and sort of posture a little bit around their human, they might actually be saying, hey, keep away from my human. That is possible. I don't know because I can't ask them. For the ones who only bark when the human is around and if you look carefully you see the the dog is getting Attention for barking then the barking is probably about attention. But a lot of these small dogs especially, they bark whether someone is home or not, and so if no one's if, so if they barked, let's say they heard something outside the door or the window or you live in an apartment building and there's a trash Shoot down the hall I have a specific client this is true for which is where this example comes from and every time someone opens and closes the trash shoot, the dog barks. Right, that's not about the human being there, that is. I heard something and that goes down to that sort of like what you just said, like they're scared, they're anxious about the situation, like they're freaked out, like, oh my god, trash shoot, trash shoot, trash shoot. You know, I mean it's, it's not. I don't think it's like a rational, rational thing.

Speaker 2: 30:28

In those cases there's a lot of oh no, oh no to the kind of barking that you see, especially with small dogs. It can really be panicked. It's definitely panic if they bark when you're away. I wouldn't say definitely. It's almost certainly panic if they bark when you're away and they just bark the whole time. You're away, yeah, and that would be separation anxiety, which is a panic disorder. But If you're home and most of the time they're not barking at you, and then the trash shoot, closes and they bark, they're barking about the trash shoot, and a lot of small dogs large dogs too, but a lot of small dogs are very sensitive to like sudden noises, yeah, things they see walking by, sounds that they hear Thunder kind of sounds, firework kind of sounds and they'll bark at those things.

Speaker 2: 31:18

And I do think that you're right, charlotte, them, those cases, they're like they're a little freaked out, they're not totally comfortable. At best they're saying get away, get away, get away, don't come any closer, which is not a comfortable feeling to come from right. They're not feeling comfortable if they're saying that and at worst they're like oh my gosh, this horrible thing just happened, which is not a comfortable emotional place to be. So I Do see a lot of that and the one thing that I want to add, before I completely forget this, is that there are factors that will make a dog more likely to overreact to things, like if they're in pain Right, and a lot of small dogs have issues with their knees or other joints.

Speaker 2: 32:00

So it like their, their knees will, their kneecaps, the way their knee works. They just they're not stable enough. And so you, you see, you know, when you see small dogs pick up their back leg every five steps as they're walking, that's because their patella is not seated right.

Speaker 1: 32:18

Okay, is that like a floating patella? And so what, that is kind of yeah okay.

Speaker 2: 32:22

Yeah, basically, and so Basically, they're a little uncomfortable all the time. So if you think about how you feel, if you have a headache, every little thing is a little more annoying. Then, when you don't have a headache, so if they're having a little bit of pain all the time, that's gonna make them more likely to bark. So the first question you should ask yourself this goes to house training too is is the dog medically okay? Yeah, are they sick? Do they need, you know, some kind of orthopedic treatment, or do they have a headache? We don't know yet whether or not dogs can have headaches, but it's another issue that's being explored in research right now. So so I do find sometimes the barking seems to get better if we treat the dogs medical needs and, and so sometimes it's every noise just sets me off. Sometimes it's every noise sets me off because I'm already feeling a little anxious, sick or in pain to begin with. So anyway, those are my thoughts. That was a really rambly set of thoughts on.

Speaker 1: 33:28

Yeah, panic is definitely there, the worry and panic absolutely I, and what I'm about to say is not to shame pet parents in any way, shape or form. But I do know that sometimes we tend to think that little dogs, the things little dogs are cute, cuter than what we would think. Would you know if a larger dog was doing it? So your little dog is scared, it's cute because he's turning to you and all sorts of stuff and he's like freaking out. Or your little dog is Yelling at somebody or another dog. You think it's cute? Oh, you're just being silly, you know, like you know, we just think it's there. We're there being silly, aren't they being cute where we wouldn't if a bigger dog was exhibiting those behaviors, because of the potential.

Speaker 1: 34:11

You know, if you're a little dog, if your large dog is lunging, it's scary to other people. Walking, it's also about heart hurts your shoulder. There's all sorts of reasons why we address those behaviors. Are there things that we're encouraging in our little dogs? Do you think To create maybe, some of these behaviors? I know that's a slippery slope, but I'll put put it a different way how can we show up for our little dogs to not encourage like Some of the behaviors that we see, like the barking, and and still show up for them and protect them with their you know if they're showing anxiety and stuff like that, but Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 34:49

Yes it makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2: 34:50

So first of all I want to say I mentioned I have a client who has four dogs three dogs, three dogs, sorry who are all under four pounds. When I met her first of those under three pound dogs, one of the very first things she said to me is I want my dog to be just as well behaved as a large dog would be. And this was a dog who at the time weighed a pound and eight ounces, so she was like you could more or less literally hold her in the palm of your hand. She was so small and I was like this is the attitude everybody with a tiny or small or whatever size dog should have is, if it's not cute and a great day. And it's not cute, my tiny dog, Right.

Speaker 2: 35:34

So I do think we need to stop and think like would this be cute if the dog was 90 pounds? Would this be cute? And even just stopping to think about that I think can be really helpful. Yeah, I think that a lot of times small dogs bark or especially like aggressive and fearful behavior. You'll see it, because we're not there being helpful to our dog. You know, like we let people swoop in and just grab them or we let people rush towards them, even if they're not going to grab them.

Speaker 2: 36:13

All these things can be kind of scary and I think it can be really nice to just be like hey, really important, let my dog come to you and decide how they want to interact instead of you invading their space. They're small, you're big, it's scary for them and I think it can really help to do those things. Then the other thing is, you know, really, as you said, like how can I be there for them? My dog is barking. Okay, maybe the first time I smiled, like I'm thinking about the noises that French Bulldogs make, for instance, can be really entertaining. Yeah, so maybe the first time I can't help myself, and I kind of giggled Because it makes you giggle, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2: 36:56

Because it makes you giggle. But then I need to stop and think is this a noise I want to hear a lot more of? Right, and if it isn't, can I stop myself from giggling next time? Right, and I think it can make a really big difference to just stop and think. When I'm with a dog, I'm always thinking about this. Obviously I'm a professional, so my brain is like trained, oh, it's on in that way, but I'm always thinking about this what is my behavior right now encouraging in the dog, and do I want to encourage that thing? So you have to stop and ask yourself that question.

Speaker 2: 37:32

All the time the dog barked because somebody walked by. Oh, isn't that funny. But do I really want them to bark? Every single time someone walked by? My dog barked at a big dog and the other the big dog ran away, which happens more often than not Totally. And isn't that funny. My dog scared the German Shepherd Totally and then one day they're going to come across the German Shepherd, who's going to decide to make them quiet and is going to go after them. Yeah, so I don't want to encourage them to bark at large dogs. I don't want to be like, ha ha, ha, that's so cute they jump on me. Do I want them to jump on everyone else? Can I teach them? Here's my signal that says to you yes, please come jump on me. But then nobody else gives that signal. So I really think it's important.

Speaker 2: 38:21

When you have a small dog, it's so easy to just dismiss stuff as oh, it's not important. You know the dog's pulling on leash, but who cares? Still, you should teach that dog how to walk on leash properly, because even a small dog pulling hard enough can hurt your shoulder. And don't even get me started on the small dogs who are on 30 foot extendable leashes and are tripping people because the leash is tripping them. So stop and think about all of those things and say like, how would this look in the long term?

Speaker 2: 38:55

What if this were a large dog? Would I be allowing this? And I'm not saying you can't allow your small dog to sit in your lap because maybe you don't want your 120-pound great Dane sitting in your lap. Like you can say, this is fine for this dog and most people will be fine with my dog being in their lap, right, but just stop and think about it, because small dogs don't need to have small dog syndrome. They can be comfortable and confident and well adjusted and completely house trained and reasonably quiet, bearing in mind that some breeds are bred to bark more like terriers, okay, and you're going to get more barking from them.

Speaker 1: 39:38

What about, like? We often just pick our dog or small dog up when there's when they're doing like? What's the line between picking your small dog up to show them that you're protecting them and that you've got their back, and creating like? Not creating like, independence and confidence, right? Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 40:06

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So first rule is there should be a verbal cue before you pick your dog up, except in emergencies. I'm going to get into emergencies in just a second. But in a normal situation I'm going to say I don't know why, up up is always my pick up cue. I don't know why, but I'll like tap my legs and say up up. And then I watch what the dog does and once the dog has learned that up up means I'm going to pick them up, what they'll start doing is they'll say yes or no. And yes is I come over and I jump on you and you can pick me up.

Speaker 2: 40:42

For most small dogs, no is they keep their distance. So the first thing is can you imagine if some 40 foot tall giant just grabbed you with no warning and then carried you to another place and suddenly you're somewhere else? Yeah, and maybe it's really scary to jump off of wherever they just put you Like. I've seen small dogs get like stuck on the couch. You know, stop and think. Give them a chance to say not right now, or can you give me a second, or at least you're giving them a warning so they know when your hands come and if you find that they move away from you every time, then they probably don't like to be picked up. So not all small dogs like to be picked up. A lot of dogs will come in, ask to be picked up when they want to be picked up, right. So I like to have a signal, that like up up signal, so that they can say yes or no to me. And it's pretty obvious usually if they're like yes, yes, pick me up. So that's one thing.

Speaker 2: 41:41

Now, having said that, that's obviously we're interacting, we're having fun. I picked you up, maybe I'm petting you for a little bit and then I put you down pretty soon after. Or maybe I picked you up to get you on the couch and then you can decide if you want to snuggle with me on the couch or sit at the opposite end of the couch or whatever it is you want to do. That's one scenario. But then there's the. We're on a walk and a 90 pound off leash dog is racing towards us and I am worried about the well-being not just well-being, welfare, like actual life and death of my small dog and you pick the dog up. So I'm all for it. Pick your dog up in those situations, because the first thing you have to do is protect physically protect your small dog. Be aware that sometimes most dogs who are off leashing come running at you have no bad intentions. They're just too friendly and off of the leash.

Speaker 1: 42:36

Most of the time.

Speaker 2: 42:36

Yeah, but most of the time. But some of them will actually want to get your small dog. So just be aware that when you pick your small dog up, you may wind up being the target that gets bitten in that situation. Right, I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying be aware. And I can say right now that, like for me, for my husband, we would much rather we get bitten than our dog. Like, that's just the way our minds work. But you need to know that that's a possibility.

Speaker 2: 43:04

The one thing is that when, as you said, like, are you taking away the dog's confidence. If you pick the dog up every time another dog comes along, then they might be left with the impression that they can't be on the ground when there are other dogs around and that something bad is going to happen, right? So I usually leave small dogs on their own for pause on the ground when a dog is approaching, as long as that dog's behavior is reasonably calm and the dog looks friendly, and I also call out hey, is your dog friendly? Right? There is only one correct answer to that question yes. The correct answer is immediately yes. You know if?

Speaker 1: 43:46

they stop yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:48

If they stop in their thinking, you say hey, is your dog friendly? And they go um yes, that's not a yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is your dog male or female? That's not a yes Cause I've heard that.

Speaker 1: 44:00

Like oh, my dog likes male dogs.

Speaker 2: 44:02

Is your dog male or female? Yeah, no, I don't want to risk that. He that I have the one male dog he doesn't like, right, right, you know. So I ask. And if it's a dog who seems to be approaching in a reasonable pace they're not racing in, they're not super excited I'm absolutely happy to let those dogs meet on their own, pause on the ground instead of like up in my arms. So I do think that we can make the mistake of being so worried about our small dog that we pick them up all the time and never let them encounter other dogs, and then they start doing this thing where they're barking from inside our arms and right, it's no fun.

Speaker 1: 44:40

So my next question, really quickly, would be what if we're not worried about our small dogs but our small dogs are yelling and going bonkers at everybody else walking by and when we pick them up they stop or they pick them up? And they're still barking, but at least we can move a little quicker and get away from the situation or whatever Like what is the what's, what about that?

Speaker 2: 45:05

Okay. So that's a really great question because I do run into that with clients. So if I pick them up and they're continuing to bark and I'm just moving away to get distance, I call that managing the situation. I'm not really teaching the dog very much in that moment. They're not going to learn anything from it. I need to come up with a strategy to help them feel better about other dogs Right, right, and you can. You know you can look into positive reinforcement methods for helping dogs feel better about other dogs, like open bar. Closed bar, for instance, is a really simple one that you can use. If you look up open bar, closed bar, it'll that that will populate. It's a really simple, easy way to start making your dog feel better about other dogs. So I'm picking the dog up in the moment I'm going. Oh, he's barking at other dogs. I really need to come up with a solution for this Right. Start applying the solution.

Speaker 1: 45:53

Okay.

Speaker 2: 45:54

But when they get to the point where they're barking, they're not going to learn anything new. Open bar, closed bar, will no longer work. You just pick them up and walk away. That's fine. Okay For the dogs that they bark, and then you pick them up and then they're quiet.

Speaker 1: 46:06

I have a theory about those dogs.

Speaker 2: 46:09

Okay. So there's two possibilities. One is you're holding them, they're more comfortable, and so they stop barking because now they're more comfortable, they don't feel threatened. Yeah, yep, they feel safer. The other possibility is that they actually feel really safe when you hold them.

Speaker 2: 46:28

In general, they see a dog racing towards them and they have learned that if they bark when there's a dog coming towards them, you pick them up. So they're basically saying hey, can you please pick me up because I don't feel safe. Got it so? So for some dogs, I think it's just one of those things where, like, you hold them and either they feel a little bit more behaviorally constrained or inhibited which could happen, but the barking stops, it's all good, we don't want them to practice the barking or they are literally saying hey, hey, pick me up, pick me up, pick me up. And that's their way of saying hey, pick me up. But either way, I'm just going to say because I've done this I've had so many clients where we do this with when, if you have that dog, that you pick them up and they stop barking at the other dog, pick them up, walk them up, walk them away. Yeah, totally fine to do that. Totally, everybody safe.

Speaker 1: 47:20

Yep.

Speaker 2: 47:21

Totally fine, but then again start training for it, right? They're not really learning anything, I'm going to Yep. They're not learning a new skill. They need a new skill. Teach them a new skill.

Speaker 1: 47:34

Got it Well. Thank you, eiread. I think we covered a lot.

Speaker 2: 47:38

I think I think we covered a lot, yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:41

So all I will say is like my perfect world would be the world where all the small dogs are as well behaved as the large dogs and the small dogs feel more comfortable because I think a lot of small dogs they just get poked and prodded and picked up and moved around and treated in a way you would never treat a rottweiler the way you treat. You know maltese Right, and I think that we need to think about making them feel safe and comfortable in their world, and some of that means that sometimes I'm not just going to decide now is petting time and grab my dog. So it would be really nice if we could all help our small dogs feel more comfortable but also have expectations that they be house trained and know how to walk on leash just like a big dog would.

Speaker 1: 48:30

Right. Well, thank you, eiread. This is very informative, per usual, and I always appreciate you coming on Well it's such a pleasure.

Speaker 2: 48:40

Thank you, I love it.