Re-Release: Is Your Dog Buzz-Killing Your Relationship?

In honor of valentines day, certified professional dog trainer Irith Bloom is back to help those of you whose dogs may be buzz- killing your relationship. We chat about what to do if your dog gets anxious or ancy every time you even go in for a hug  with your significant other.  We also chat how to introduce your dog to your new love interest, how to introduce your dog to a new love interest's dog, and even how to introduce your dog to a new love interest's cat!  Don't worry, we also touch on how our  pups can improve our relationships!

Irith is a CPDT-KSA, a CBCC-KA, a CDBC, a KPA CTP, a VSPDT, and a CBATI. She is also faculty at both Victoria Stilwell Dog Training Academy and DogBiz’s Dog Walking Academy, and she's certified in TAGteach, a positive reinforcement method for teaching humans. She is on the board of the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT), and Chair Emeritus of the Education Committee of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers (APDT).

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Dogs make the best companions for humans. This podcast aims to help make humans better companions for their dogs. Welcome to the Baroo Podcast, a modern lifestyle podcast for dogs and their people. I'm your host, charlotte Bain. I've been caring for other people's dogs for more than 15 years and, while I've learned a lot in my career, I definitely don't know at all. So I've collected an ever-evolving roster of amazing dog people and I learn new things from them all the time. Hi you guys. Thank you so much for joining me for another episode of the Baroo Podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:49

In this episode, in honor of Valentine's Day, certified professional dog trainer Eri Bloom is back to help those of you whose dogs may be buzz-killing your relationships. We chat about what to do if your dog gets anxious or antsy every time you even go in for a hug with your significant other, how to introduce your dog to a new love interest, how to introduce your dog to a new love interest dog, and even how to introduce your dog to a new love interest cat. We also touch on some of the ways our dogs can really improve our relationships. So let's jump into the chat. So today I wanted to talk about what to do if your puppy or your dog is buzz-killing your relationship, right?

Speaker 1: 1:39

So I think, in honor of Valentine's Day, I want to jump into some of those things because they're really common and I don't think people really think about that until they're in the moment. So I wanted to start with probably one. There's several things I wanted to talk about, but one of the most common things that I hear from people and you mentioned that you actually hear from some of your clients is that anytime someone goes to hug or embrace or even be close, be intimate with their partner, their dog goes bonkers, whether it's barking, whether it's jumping on them or trying to get in between the two or any of those things. So I think that is something that probably we can help people with put some kind of functional things into play for them.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:29

I have a client right now where the dog does all those things and also nips at them.

Speaker 2: 2:33

So it's really hard to ignore.

Speaker 1: 2:36

That's like my friend's dog Yep.

Speaker 2: 2:38

The little teeth jabbing at you, not bad bites, it's not like anyone's getting injured, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, right? So yeah, it's a really interesting thing because, I have to say, from a behavior analysis standpoint, it can be hard to figure out why. Why are they doing this? Are they feeling left out, and so they're trying to get into the situation? So it's just like oh wait, I lost the attention, I want the attention back. That's one possibility. Sometimes it seems like they're guarding one person against the other.

Speaker 2: 3:11

So it's like I guard mom, and so dad can't get near her, or mom can't get near her, depending on the type of couple. So it can get really complex and there's a lot of anxiety in the dogs. Usually when this is happening, they're really struggling to cope with the two family members paying more attention to each other or getting so close to each other or whatever that happens to be. So it's tough. That's a real tough problem. The problem is you can't really deal with it in the moment very well. It's something you actually kind of have to train for if you want it to get better.

Speaker 1: 3:51

So is it like a jealousy thing, you think, or we don't know, probably different from each dog we don't know.

Speaker 2: 3:59

So the state of research into emotions and cognition in dogs is way better than it was 10 years ago, but it's nowhere near good Really. It's just there's, and what I mean by that is a lot of research is being done, which is fantastic. It makes me super, super happy. But compared to all the other fields of research out there with animals like talk about rodent studies, when people are studying how mice behave there are literally thousands more times studies than what's going on in the dog world. So we're very, very early in the process, which means so sorry. I'm just going to back up and say in science, the key to finding evidence for things and starting to form strong hypotheses about why things are happening is to have a lot of data, and that means a lot of repetition. So it's not just one study doesn't prove anything. You need to have 100 studies that all say the same thing before you can really start to feel like that's a strong conclusion to draw. What that means is, in our dog world, people are doing maybe 20 or 30 studies a year and they're all on different topics. We've only been doing this for it's really been like a renaissance in dog research. That's maybe barely coming up on 10 years. So we only have a couple hundred studies and they don't all look at the same thing.

Speaker 2: 5:21

So, with that said, based on what we understand about other animals, we can make some guesses about dogs. So we can guess that they can feel basic emotions like love and joy, and panic, which is a big one if you have a dog with separation anxiety or grief, which is about being separated from the people that they love, like again in separation anxiety, or if one of your pets passes away and the other one is grieving. That is a very real thing. That happens to basically all mammals, as far as we can tell. Jealousy is a little bit more complex and we're just not sure we just don't know yet if they experienced jealousy.

Speaker 2: 6:08

Or is this just grief, let's say, because they're losing that attention, right? So I'm grieving the loss of my interaction and then I'm getting agitated and then maybe a little bit of that panic comes in and the agitation gets really, really big and it gets out of control. So we can't be sure what's happening. I can't sit the dog down, lie them on the couch and say you know, tell me about your mother and tell me how you're feeling, because they don't, just don't do that verbal stuff. But what I can do is I can try different solutions and see what works best.

Speaker 1: 6:44

So what would some of those solutions be? Because I think a lot of times when people I have a friend who every time she gets close to her boyfriend, the same thing happens Her dog is a small dog but she nips her, she nips her, she jumps on them she's tried, like, putting the dog outside and then he just scratches at the door and then, you know, embarks obsessively. She's tried, like putting the dog in a crate with like a Kong and she still does. That's not enough for her. So what are some of the things that we could think about doing or implementing ahead of time to help with those situations like that? So it's not a super buzzkill, essentially and we don't want to stress out the dog either- yeah, yeah, you don't want to stress out, the dog, and it's stressful for you and it's stressful for the person you're with.

Speaker 1: 7:31

It's just no fun around.

Speaker 2: 7:32

So the first thing I'll say is I love that she's tried to like having the dog outside and having the dog in a crate, because both of those are solutions that will work for many dogs. I can just get them away from the action and sometimes it's good enough.

Speaker 1: 7:46

I'm gonna say I think she hasn't done that. I think she's only done that, like in the moment. So I don't think she's. I'm not gonna call her out, but I'm saying I think maybe she hasn't worked on that. You know, at times where there she's not, you know she forgets about it, you know, until the moment happens again. So yeah, yeah, and it is really easy to forget about.

Speaker 2: 8:05

So I will say the most common solution for my clients that has worked has been putting the dog somewhere else. And my experience generally is that dogs like this, you want them to be away from you because it's almost like even if they're in a crate, if they can see you, then they're still stressed that they can't be with you. But if they're so far away that whatever is going on with you, they're not smelling you as clearly, they're not hearing you as well, they might calm down more. So I'm gonna say on average, this is a situation where having the dog like a room over is usually better than trying to confine them in the same room. But you just brought up a really good point, which is you need to practice that, because if your dog can't tolerate being in a crate at all, then they're definitely gonna not be able to tolerate it when you are sort of stressing them out because of whatever emotion it is that they're experiencing in this moment.

Speaker 2: 9:03

So definitely I'm a, I have to say like sometimes people get really weird about crates and I am a huge fan of crates. I am too. I'm all about the crates, like every dog in the world should be comfortable in a crate, and I'm not saying lock your dog in the crate 16 hours a day, which would be horrible, by the way. Do not do that. I'm saying that dogs should be able to tolerate that Like, let's say, I know that not everyone listening to this is in Southern California, but just for us as a Southern California audience, we have earthquakes, we have fires, we have floods. You never know when you might need to go into some kind of shelter situation because you're home is not livable and if your dog can be crated, they can come with you, and if they can't be crated, sometimes they're not welcome and you wind up having to put them at the humane society, which is a lot less pleasant for your dog.

Speaker 1: 9:56

So that's stressful, just for that, right, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 10:00

Yeah, just for that, all dogs should learn how to be crated. With that said, look up, there's all kinds of wonderful crate training plans out there. I won't go too deeply into this because this would be like a one hour rabbit.

Speaker 1: 10:14

Maybe we'll do a separate one on crate training.

Speaker 2: 10:16

Yeah, crate training is a great topic, though. Look up like Kiko Pup talks about crate training. Susan Garrett has something called Crate Games, which is really fantastic. Okay, I personally I'll give you my like five sentence-ish kind of quick description. What I do is I start with the crates in the room. The door is closed and there's treats in the crate, so the dog can't get in, but there are treats in there. And then you open the door and when the dog walks in, you drop more treats in, but you don't shut the door. And then, when the dog walks out, you shut the door, drop some more treats in and let the dog think about that for a while. After you do that for a few days, your dog's going to start saying hey, the crate is kind of an awesome place to be. They're going to go in. You drop treats and then you, very gradually this is the part I'm going to gloss over- Right.

Speaker 2: 11:03

And then you touch the door, drop a treat. Touch the door and swing it an inch. Drop a treat. Or, if it's a flap, lower the flap a tiny bit. Feed a treat Until you can actually shut the door. Find a way to keep feeding treats while the door is shut, then open it and if the dog stays in there they get more treats and if they come out the treats stop and you kind of build up from there. So it turns into this awesome spot where they get a treat and maybe you put a chew in there for them and they're like I love it in here.

Speaker 2: 11:32

And I have clients where their dogs hate the crate and we go through this process and their dogs are scratching at the door when the crate door is shut because they want to get in there, because it's super fun zone. So start with that mindset let's make the crate super awesome. And then you have to build up. Can I be? I step away for a minute, I come back, I drop a treat, I step away, I wait till the dog is calm and then drop a treat. You can very slowly build this up and in that case then what happens is, when your romantic partner arrives, you sort of like maybe half an hour you spend with the dog and then you crate the dog. It's no big deal, because you've been doing it all along and then the two of you don't have to worry about the dog interfering. Whether that means you want to go for a walk together or go to a room together, the dog is in the crate and everything's fine because the dog's comfortable in the crate. So that's a big one that I really love.

Speaker 1: 12:30

Can I ask a quick question, and then we're not going to focus on crate training, but is a dog ever too old to be crate trained, or can you crate train at any age?

Speaker 2: 12:39

You can crate train at any age, as long as the crate is the right size, and it's so. Crates should be big enough for a dog to walk in and turn around and lie down comfortably. Got it, and that's especially important for your older dog, because your older dog may be feeling a little arthritic and creaky and if they can't sort of stretch and move around then it can be literally painful to be like. Think about how you feel in an airplane seat when you've been in it for more than five hours.

Speaker 2: 13:07

Take that and, like, multiply it, you know, because they don't have the option to stand up and ask the person next to them and let them go to the bathroom. Right, they're just stuck in there. So that's a. It's a really great question, though. So I will say I have trained dogs of all ages. I love to do this with puppies because it helps them learn to be alone, but I've done this with senior dogs.

Speaker 2: 13:29

Any dog can learn to be crated. There are occasionally dogs that have some kind of really severe trauma about confinement, and once in a while I meet a dog where I'm like you know, let's not use a crate, let's use an X pen, which is like a baby pen for dogs, because the smallness of the crate seems to just disturb the dog too much. But then you do the same thing. The door is open to the X pen. You walk in, you get treats, you walk out, the treats stop. I shut the door, drop some treats in so same general concept, and that's what that would be. My preferred suggestion is just put the dog away, because the training process to get them used to you hugging or kissing or whatever is kind of involved and you're going to have to really dedicate yourself to it for a while before you see progress, and I'm happy to talk about that process too. But I would say, start with just.

Speaker 2: 14:22

the dog is in another place, safely confined and comfortably confined Right, and not for a very long time, but just for like and not for, yeah, I mean you should never this is like our PSA portion here never create a dog for more than four hours in a row period, Okay, Okay, Because you get into that whole, like they're stuck in a certain position. They can develop blood clots, just like we can, like. All kinds of things can go wrong. So you don't want to do it because it's just physically unhealthy. If you have a puppy, yeah, four hours is way too long. Most young puppies can only tolerate an hour or two in the crate. An adult dog can handle four hours. That's usually okay. But if you're going to have to do more than four hours, use an X pen so that they can move around.

Speaker 1: 15:10

Okay, good to know. Yeah, I have a dog. I don't know if I'll include this, but I do have a dog that still. He's about four now and he sleeps in the crate overnight. Oh sorry, he has a very big crate, though. What are?

Speaker 2: 15:23

you going to say so let me mention sorry, okay, no, this brings up a really good, and so one thing I forgot to say is overnight, those rules don't apply.

Speaker 1: 15:32

Okay, okay, good, because I was like he loves this crate overnight, like he's like so when he's ready to go to bed. He's got like sleepy eyes and like he's just like can somebody put me in my crate even though I'm four years old?

Speaker 2: 15:43

Yeah, so let me reiterate this Okay, Every time, at a time when the dog would normally be awake. Four hours is the maximum.

Speaker 1: 15:51

Okay, but if your dog sacks?

Speaker 2: 15:53

out for 10 hours overnight. They can be in the crate for 10 hours overnight. Okay, Got it.

Speaker 1: 15:58

Okay, perfect. Good, I'm glad I brought that up to clarify that. Yeah, so do you want to touch on some of the ways that we can train our dogs to kind of tolerate lights? Romantic encounters yes.

Speaker 2: 16:15

This is definitely. This is one of those things where you're going to feel like you're making no progress. So I just want to warn you, it's going to feel like you're making progress in like little millimeters at a time.

Speaker 2: 16:27

The key with training like this is if it's not going well, you need to slow down, not speed up. You need to make things easier, not harder. So let's take an imaginary couple. When they hug, the dog goes crazy. There is some point where the dog's not going crazy, right, where the dog's not jumping or nipping or barking or worming his way between them. So imagine, let's say that when they're 10 feet apart from each other I'm just making this up when they're 10 feet apart, the dog is calm. So you would say, okay, the dog is. We're 10 feet apart, we're looking at each other, the dog is calm. I'm just going to throw a treat in his general direction. He gets a treat. He's still calm. We step one foot closer. So each person steps six inches in dog is still calm, gets a treat. Step another six inches in dog is still calm, gets a treat.

Speaker 2: 17:21

At some point the dog is going to start to look more alert. Or maybe they were lying down or sitting and they stand up or they're going to start moving towards you. That is the point where you go whoa, this is too close. This is the place where we need to work. So let's say that's six feet apart just to make up a number. So we went 10, nine and a half, nine, eight and a half eight and so on, got to six. Now it's six feet distance. The dog is stepping towards us. So we go back out to six and a half feet, got it. We practice there for a little while until the dog is like, oh hum, I have no idea why you're even giving me treats. Then try that six inches closer again, that six inches each one. So they're like six feet apart and the dog is okay with it. But then maybe you step into the next distance in. We'll call five and a half feet for the sake of the argument, even though I was saying we would move a foot at the time originally.

Speaker 2: 18:15

Anyway, call five and a half feet and the dog stands up again. So now you need to work a little bit more at six feet of distance, right, and you slowly work to the point where you can stand right next to each other. You're not touching, you just are standing right next to each other. Something I just said may take more than one training session. So I just want to clarify that this is not all going to happen in 10 minutes. Some dogs it will, many dogs it won't. So now that you're standing close to each other, we'll skip a few training sessions ahead. You're next to each other. One of you is just going to put an arm on the other, you're not going to both put arms around each other.

Speaker 2: 18:53

It's only going to be one arm. One arm dog stays calm, drop a treat. One arm dog is not calm. But back, regroup. And when you regroup you're going to think about okay, so we talked about how, when we were 10 feet apart, we have to slowly move our way closer. When I put my arm on the person, that was too much. So what's between me having my arm at my side and putting my arm on the person? There's like a whole bunch of movements, right? So you just start moving like from your shoulder dog is calm, drop a treat. Okay, now I can raise my hand to sort of shoulder level Dog is calm, drop a treat. I can put my hand over the person, the other person's shoulder Dog is calm, drop a treat. Or if the dog is not calm, we back up.

Speaker 2: 19:37

So there's sort of a concept that's running through all this and eventually, with that mindset, you're going to add two arms from one person and then one arm and then the second arm from the other person, and then you're going to be hugging and you toss the dog an occasional treat From there. The goal would be and again, remember, you're doing this informal training session, so it's going to feel really weird. These are not going to be like hugs that you're having fun with. These are going to be like hugs where you're like watching the dog, You're like what is he going to do next?

Speaker 1: 20:04

Is this like desensitizing the dog essentially to your relationship? Yeah, Exactly.

Speaker 2: 20:11

It's desensitizing to that closeness, that hugging, whatever it is that the dog is freaking out about Got it, and desensitization is a process that takes a long time and a lot of steps.

Speaker 2: 20:22

So once you get to the point where you can hug and the dog is okay, then the next thing you would do is you would slow down how often the treats arrive.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Now, another way you could do this which, for those of you who have already trained your dog to go to a mat, another way you could do this is you say we're standing 10 feet apart, I'm going to send the dog to the mat. The dog goes to the mat, I'm going to deliver a treat over there and then I'm going to try 9.5 feet or 9 feet apart, send the dog to the mat and you're going to keep testing. Can I send him to the mat at distance and then stat distance, stat distance, the moment you can't send him to the mat anymore. You know you have to practice a little bit more before you make it harder. So the sending to the mat is sort of a barometer of the dog's mood. Is he really agitated and he can't hear anymore? Because that's what happens to all of us, right, when we get really, really anxious we don't process things very well, no, we don't.

Speaker 2: 21:15

Oh my gosh, he's so agitated, he's being so challenged by this situation, he's having so much trouble coping that he can no longer go to his mat, even though he's a superstar at that behavior. Yeah, and then we stay at, let's say, 6 feet distance. Go to mat, get a treat there, get another treat there, get another treat there. Release the dog off the mat. Then try 5.5 feet. And the great thing about this is, since you're sending the dog away it's actually going to take him a while to get to you.

Speaker 1: 21:41

So you have a little warning.

Speaker 2: 21:42

If the dog is going to come and suddenly interfere in your hug and you do exactly the same thing, but now you're sending the dog to the mat and dropping a treat whenever they get it. Right. If they get up off of the mat, you send them back there. But you might need to make it easier. So I love okay. So crates are like one of my favorite things. Matwork is another one of my favorite things, right, because if you have a dog who can go to a mat and just settle and stay there, you can use that for all kinds of things, like visitors coming over you hugging.

Speaker 1: 22:13

I have a client right now, where Seems like a lot easier than the desensitizing them to that. It kind of yeah, because it gives the dog a task. Yeah, it gives them something to do, so it's being obsessed with you, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:26

Yeah, interesting.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:27

And this is what we're using. I have a client right now that they have an elderly mother who comes to visit and when the elderly mother comes over, the dog just is jumping on her. And it's difficult for the elderly mother because she's just not young and you could theoretically even knock her over if you kind of hit the right angle. And so this is one of the things we've been working on Doorbell rings go to your mat, hang out and then the dog, knowing exactly where to be and what to do, means that they have something to think about other than, oh my gosh, I have to go jump on you because you're hugging. Or, in the case I was just talking about, jump on grandma because she just walked in the door.

Speaker 1: 23:10

Do you think the dog would end up making the connection like oh, they're going in for a hug, I'm going to go to my mat.

Speaker 2: 23:16

Yes, does that happen. Yeah, it absolutely does. This is happening.

Speaker 1: 23:21

I'm going to go get on my mat or I'm going to go get in my crib, right yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:27

And the best way to make that happen is so when we're when we want to. Okay. So I'm going to use the word cue, and what I mean by a cue is the signal for something. It could be something that I say, it could be a hand motion, or it could be something that happens in the environment that I'm not even in control of. If I want to change.

Speaker 2: 23:47

So right now, let's imagine I have Phi Phi trained to go to a mat and I say Phi Phi, go to your mat. And she goes to her mat and I so Phi Phi knows the phrase go to your mat. That's her signal Right Right Now. I want her to go to her mat when I hug. So what I'm going to do is, after I first made sure that she can handle all those things, I'm going to reach out for a hug and then immediately say Phi Phi, go to your mat, and she's going to go to her mat. So we're inserting the new signal before the old signal.

Speaker 2: 24:17

Okay, and the way animals make associations, phi Phi's going to start noticing hey, every time you hug, the next thing you do is you tell me to go to your mat so I can get my treat faster if I start going there right when you hug, right, right. And so that's the order that we do it in. Whatever the new signal is, we're going to put it first, then use the old reliable signal and then the dog does the behavior and gets rewarded. But if you do it enough times, the dogs love to jump ahead to the treat, so they anticipate and they start doing that, and this is how I actually teach doormanners and a ton of other things, using this basic concept, so that I don't have to, as a human being, be like wait, stop, hope. All the time the door says to the dog wait five feet away, because that's what we've always worked on, and in this case it would be the hug that says to the dog go, hang out on your mat, right?

Speaker 1: 25:15

Would it be the same kind of a thing if you, let's say, you are someone who's single and you're dating different people, or would this be more? And every time you have there's a new person in your life, your dog is either gets weird about the new person or weird about you. One or the other, they just start acting weird again. So either they're madly in love with your new person and getting weird around you, or they're just madly in love with you and they're getting weird around your new person. Would the same thing apply to that, or would you be more apt to do something like the desensitization, because you want the dog to have a better association with the new person?

Speaker 2: 25:58

That's a really great question and, by the way, can I say don't you hate it when your dog likes someone else?

Speaker 1: 26:03

but you're so annoying but, putting that aside.

Speaker 2: 26:08

So I would say either technique would probably work because either way the dog is associated. When the person comes, I get good stuff. But I would be inclined to do the mat one because it gives me that little task that the dog is trained at and is comfortable doing and is fluent at doing, and so they don't have to overcome the emotion as much because I've directed them to think about something else. So my inclination would be to say, like the next three to seven people, that you date, you go through this process with the mat so that the dog learns when you hug anybody, yes, right.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Go to the mat.

Speaker 2: 26:50

But dogs aren't really great at generalizing, they're going to be like. So if it's 2 pm on a Tuesday and Charlie is visiting, then I can go to my mat when I see a hug. But if it's not 2 pm or it's not Charlie, then I don't know what to do. So it really helps if you can be like, and I mean you can just have random friends come over and hug them. It doesn't always have to be a romantic partner or your mother or your father or your siblings or whatever Some cousin from.

Speaker 1: 27:20

Albuquerque? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 27:21

So I have a cousin in Albuquerque, so they all come give you a hug. You get the hugs, send the dog to the mat and the dog starts to learn. Whoever comes in and hugs you, my job is to be on the mat, so that would be my preference, I think, because the desensitization one is a little bit slower and more difficult to get volunteers for.

Speaker 1: 27:42

I was going to say you're in a date and I might not be super interested in committing to that off the bat.

Speaker 2: 27:49

Although it might be a really good test, like is this person a keeper? Well, they work Totally. Yeah, you're right, just saying that's true.

Speaker 1: 27:57

Well, I'm not sure what if you're dating. So this is, we're switching up just a little bit. But what if you're dating somebody and your dog doesn't get? They have a dog and your dog doesn't get along with that dog. How do you deal with that kind of a situation? Because obviously, if you're wanting to continue dating somebody, you're going to want the two of them to be a part of your lives, right?

Speaker 2: 28:23

Yeah, so a few tips. No, it's funny, I'm actually in the middle of writing an article, not on the Valentine's Day aspect of this topic, but on the Introducing Dogs topic.

Speaker 1: 28:30

Okay, so it's very fresh in my mind Okay, good, Yay.

Speaker 2: 28:33

So number one first impressions matter. First impressions really really matter. So don't, if this is someone that you, even if you're not sure if you might want them in your lifelong term. But you're dating someone and they're like, hey, I have a dog, let's get our dogs together. Take the time to go through a proper introduction, Okay, Because if you sort of just throw them together and it doesn't work and then the two of you as a couple wind up being a long-term thing, then you're going to have all this bad first impression to undo. Yeah, so ways that you can do a good first impression. First of all, good news is you have one person per dog, right, yeah?

Speaker 2: 29:11

Or one person for each household of dogs. Yeah, so I'm a big fan of going on a long walk, right, but you're not going on a long walk together. You're going on a long walk on opposite sides of the street oh, interesting, and you're walking in the same direction, okay. And anytime one of the dogs looks across the street at the other dog, you say, oh, you're so clever for noticing Fifi, who is my dog of the day, apparently. Yeah, and you love him. Yeah, hand them a treat, okay, and then keep walking, so they don't the problem. What dogs tend to do is they fixate. They're like oh my gosh, there's a dog over there, mm-hmm. Whether they're over excited or scared, it doesn't lend itself to a calm, good greeting. I'll just put it that way, right? And so what I want is dog glances over. Oh, fifi, so clever, you saw Fido over there and Fifi gets a treat.

Speaker 2: 30:03

And then Fido looks over at Fifi. Oh, fido, how clever of you to look at Fifi and Fido gets a treat. And so the two dogs are walking on opposite sides of the street Excuse me, not opposite sides of the treat Opposites of the street and also looks the opposite sides of the treat.

Speaker 2: 30:17

That's true, and they're learning that when they look over they get a treat, and if they pay attention to you they can get treats for that too. And you just do this until the dogs are like whatever there's a dog across the street, but I'm really not upset about it. Then you have one of the dogs walk ahead, the other one crosses the street and now you're following one behind the other at a distance of I recommend like 20 feet to start, so nobody gets too excited and the dogs can see each other. And if the dog in front glances back, then you feed a treat to that dog for glancing back. And if the dog behind is staring okay, fifi, you noticed the dog, good job, fifi's in the back apparently.

Speaker 2: 30:56

And you hand Fifi a treat and maybe you encourage Fifi and Fido to sniff around and do normal doggy things, so it's not all about the other dog. Then turn the dogs around so that the opposite dog is behind and do the same thing, do the same thing in the other direction, and the goal is for the dogs to be like I have seen this dog for 30 minutes and this is so not exciting anymore that it's okay. Then, whichever dog is friendlier, put them in the front. And I do have to say when I say friendlier, the dog also has to be fundamentally friendly. If neither of the dogs is friendly, it's a more complicated process and I won't go into that. But assuming that the dogs are both at least a little friendly, whichever one is friendlier, you allow the dog who's less friendly to come up and sniff that dog in the butt, which?

Speaker 1: 31:45

is the normal way for dogs to get in. Get all up in there, yep.

Speaker 2: 31:49

They're not supposed to be face to face. That's not natural. No, that's so stressful and weird.

Speaker 1: 31:53

That's what's really weird.

Speaker 2: 31:54

It's very strange. So instead, dog sniffs and then you're going to move the dog away, feed whoever was in back a treat. We'll say it's Fifi. Fifi sniffed Fido. Fifi moves away, gets a treat. Fido gets a treat. Do that a couple of times until when you let Fifi go sniff Fido, she's like I don't even care, I've met him, I know what he smells like. And then you do the same thing, the opposite way, as long as Fifi doesn't get nervous, because she's going to be the less friendly dog, theoretically, right. Right, if she does get nervous, just don't do that at all. Like, don't have, because some dogs are like what are you doing? You're sniffing my butt.

Speaker 1: 32:28

This is so weird.

Speaker 2: 32:31

At that point, if everyone's still calm. So this is like my theme of the day everyone has to be calm. Figuring you're gonna spend 90 minutes doing this, by the way, 90, you know, an hour and a half doing this, yep, wow, if everyone's still calm. Then you walk opposite each other but if possible, with the dogs at least sort of five feet separated so that they're not coming straight at each other but they're offset by about five feet. And when you keep checking, basically I'm stepping forward saying can the dog pay attention if I say her name? Hey, phi Phi, if she can't look at me and she can only look at Fido, we're too close, we need to stop and back off. And I'm gonna keep saying Phi Phi, oh, good job, get a treat, phi Phi, good job, get a treat, phi Phi, good job, get a treat. Meanwhile the other person's going Fido, good job, get a treat. When they're so close that they can practically touch, you're gonna say say hello, hello, counting your head one, one thousand, two, one thousand, three, one thousand. After three, one thousand, let's go and either stick a treat in front of the dog's nose and draw them away, or clap your hands or pat your side but get them to move on.

Speaker 2: 33:36

So now we're doing I call these flybys. We're doing flybys, right? The dogs go oh, we're opposite each other, sniff, sniff, move on. We're opposite each other, sniff, sniff, move on. So they keep crossing each other's path but then continuing in opposite directions. If all of that goes well, then walk them side by side back to whatever home they're going into. The dog who's a stranger should walk in first, because if a dog is gonna get territorial, it's usually the dog that lives there. And there's a big difference between I walked into my space and there's somebody there and I'm in my space and someone's walking in. So you want, let's say, this is Fido's house. Fifi walks in first, then Fido walks in, everyone's on leash. Do a couple more flybys. If that's all going really well, let go of the leashes. Don't take them off, just drop them and see what the dogs will do.

Speaker 2: 34:33

Okay, and in most cases, by then they're just gonna be like whatever Things to watch out for. If either of the dogs is way more energetic than the other, this is harder. Yeah, because their energy levels don't match. Like in a perfect world, their energy levels would match doesn't always happen. Other things to think about, like if anyone's getting stiff or tense, try to call them apart. Pull on the leash as a last resort, because when you pull on the leash, that can actually lead to aggression.

Speaker 2: 35:04

So try to call them apart. It's really, really worthwhile to take the time to practice saying Fifi, and Fifi turns to you and you give her a treat, fifi, fido gets a treat, so that when you say Fifi or Fido, they both go hey, I know you're gonna feed me a treat and they trot over to you and all of that will really help. But taking the time to make this a really careful introduction and this can take less than 90 minutes with dogs who are pretty chill and relaxed. But if you have dogs who are unfriendly, you might want an expert to help you. I recommend reaching out to either someone who's listed on the IA ABC website or someone who's listed on the CCPDT website. Those will look for a certified behavior consultant. Both of those have certified behavior consultant qualifications so CCPDT, iaabc and they will help you. If one of the dogs is fundamentally not friendly, because then it's poor, like introducing cats for anyone who's ever done this.

Speaker 2: 36:01

That was gonna be my next question, like what if your new partner has a cat and your dog, like, doesn't have any experience with cats or you know whatever, and so let me really quickly back up and just say if you have two super friendly dogs, you might be able to get this introduction done in 20 minutes, but I want you to allow an hour and a half, just in case. And if you have a yard, great to have the meat in the yard instead of in the house. And if you have a neighbor's yard, you can borrow Great to do that. First, drop leash introduction in the neighbor's yard because nobody owns that, right? It doesn't belong to either dog, right? So those are just a couple of extra thoughts.

Speaker 2: 36:40

So, cats and dogs number one rule of cats and dogs is you have to keep the cat safe and you have to keep the cat comfortable, right? I would much rather have the dog be afraid of the cat, yeah, than the other way around, mm-hmm. And I don't care if your dog is five pounds or 50 pounds, right? It's still better for the dog to be afraid of the cat, because the dog can do more damage to a cat on average, yeah. So, and there it's a longer process, right? I mean, if you're talking about introducing your dog to someone's cat, you're probably moving in together, would?

Speaker 1: 37:15

be my guess, I guess, yeah, you're right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:17

Yeah, and at that point it is worth taking a few weeks to make the introduction, which is kind of what you need to do, because cats don't usually get comfortable fast with anything, right? So if you look up how to introduce two cats, if you want to bring a new cat in your household and you already have a cat, the process with dogs is pretty similar, okay. What I like to add is that there's one person with each pet and they're training or playing with that pet Right Behind a barrier, far apart from each other, okay, so that the two of them learn I can have fun and focus on something else. This is more important for the dog than the cat, right, because the dog is going to tend to want to, like, zoom in and either sniff or maybe worse, depending on the dog's instincts, right? The good news is that virtually every single dog can become friendly with cats. Even sight hounds can become friendly with cats. It just needs to be the right cat in the right sight hound. I will say there are some dogs who cannot do this.

Speaker 1: 38:19

So bear that in mind. I don't know anything about them, but I'm assuming they just have a high prey drive.

Speaker 2: 38:24

Anything that moves quickly, they will chase.

Speaker 1: 38:27

Oh, because they're a sight Got it Because they're yeah. So if you're Just put it together, no, it's okay.

Speaker 2: 38:32

So if your cat tends to run away and you get that streak of cat, your sight hound is not going to think, it's not going to be a conscious thought, they're just going to start chasing and that can end badly. Yeah, but some sight hounds as long as the cat is confident, they get along great with cats. If you do have a greyhound or something, especially if you got it from greyhound rescue, they will often tell you whether that greyhound is appropriate for cats. They do testing most of them because of this, yeah, but yeah. So what you want is you want a dog who's really respectful of the cat, so that the cat feels really confident. And, honestly, if your cat at some point reaches out and goes claws across the dog's face, that's fine, because now the dog will respect the cat.

Speaker 2: 39:16

I'm not saying create that situation Right, but don't be angry with your cat if your cat does that, because your cat is just creating safety.

Speaker 1: 39:23

Right Chance, my dog Chance. He's not the best with cats. He doesn't. He would be besties with them if they were not, if they didn't run away, but the minute they, he just wants to get close enough to check them out, because he's been in close counters with cats who are super calm, like old cats, and he was fine. But as soon as a cat runs away he is like I mean, now he's 15. So he doesn't. The cat has one up on him for sure, but he still tries to chase him. Yeah, he can't.

Speaker 2: 39:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:53

He can do it.

Speaker 2: 39:55

But this reminds me that something else, because we were talking about mats if you train your cat to stay on a mat Interesting, then you can have your dog on one mat, your cat on one mat. You slowly move the mats closer together. The cat learns that they can confidently hang out on their mat while the dog is getting a little closer. Okay, and they can make friends that way and I will say I love cat dog friendships. They can be really beautiful friendships. Yeah, cats can learn to play like dogs and dogs can learn to play like cats.

Speaker 1: 40:25

So my good friend just got a cat. She got a kitten and a puppy at the same time, so they're besties. Oh wow, yeah, they'll get along fine, totally fine. Yeah, it's really cute. What about do people ever ask you if their dog should sleep in the same room with them?

Speaker 2: 40:42

I get asked that a lot. I'm going to say perfect world. We are the dogs. Family and dogs are social animals, just like we are social animals. Then we've got this really cool thing with dogs we don't have with any other species on this planet, which is that we have evolved together to live together.

Speaker 2: 41:05

In fact, some dogs would rather hang out with a person than another dog. That's how deep the connection is. So I would say I always want the dog to have the opportunity to be in the same room with me, right? I usually leave the door open so that the dog can leave. If they're like whatever, they're snoring, I don't want to be around that, or where the carpet is too warm. I had one dog that he'd stay on his bed until he was convinced we were asleep, which sometimes we weren't and then he would get up and go lie down on the tile, which was in another room.

Speaker 2: 41:38

Yeah, but he had the option to come in if you wanted to hang out with us. Yeah, so I do like to have a dog in your room, if they're not creating problems.

Speaker 1: 41:49

Right, if they're calm and they're chill and whatever's happening.

Speaker 2: 41:52

Yeah, so you could create your dog in your room or have your dog in a bed in your room. But if you're having issues, I would definitely say get that crate out of the room for nighttime so that it's normal for the dog to be separated from you Right At night. And in general, I will say that one of the ways that dogs do become a problem for sort of amorous activities is if they are used to sleeping in the bed.

Speaker 1: 42:22

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:23

Yeah, and so I have no problem with your dog sleeping in your bed, but you have to bear in mind that that may put a little bit of a kink in your love life Relationship. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:31

I'm going to speak. Yeah, that's right. So that's why. So the key to all of this is putting your dog can sleep in your bed with you. But if you give them these other skills, implement these other skills where they're able to go and be OK by themselves in their crate, be OK on their mat when other people are over ahead of time, they'll know that when so-and-so is over, it's not OK for them to sleep in the bed and they can go to this nice other thing instead right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:02

And then one of the things I would recommend is, just in case, because of the way the brain makes associations, that's something we know about basically all animals. It's how animals' brains work. So otherwise they would well any multicellular animal. Otherwise they're going to die because they're not going to make the proper association and they'll wander into a dangerous situation twice and it won't always work out. So what that means is, if every time my partner, charlie comes over, the dog goes in the crate for the night, the dog is going to start associating Charlie with being sent to the crate, right? So I want to make sure that the dog also sleeps in the crate, sometimes when no one's over, got it OK, and it doesn't have to be every night. But I would say like, let's have the dog sleep in another room in the crate at least five or ten times before the first time Charlie comes over. Because, again, it's first impressions, right? If the very first time is when Charlie comes over, the impression will be stronger.

Speaker 1: 43:59

Right, ok, can we end on a happier note? Because not because of the Not that this wasn't a happy note, but just some ways that our dogs can improve our relationships. Dogs can bring a lot of joy and bring people together also, versus just bullying their way into our love lives.

Speaker 2: 44:20

Right, that's absolutely true, so, true so. I'm going to say a couple of things. First of all, sometimes you meet someone over a dog, totally yeah, I used to have a dog who was just gorgeous. He was like the supermodel of the dog world.

Speaker 1: 44:33

He really was.

Speaker 2: 44:34

People would literally stop driving down the street, roll down their window and say your dog is really gorgeous. Yeah, people would come up to me and tell me that, and what this meant was that when my husband was walking this dog around, women were always coming up to talk to him.

Speaker 1: 44:49

We were like he's wasted. Our dog is wasted, you know Dog.

Speaker 2: 44:54

And so sometimes you could just literally meet someone, because you've got a dog and they've got a dog. Or maybe you've got a dog and they want a dog and they don't have a dog, or Right, they love dogs and they're coming, they talk to you, so dogs as matchmakers. I'm like I really I see it happen.

Speaker 1: 45:08

I really do see it happen. People are definitely more apt to talk to people out in the world, For whatever reason. It seems much safer to talk to somebody who has a dog with them versus to talk just striking up a conversation with somebody out on the street who doesn't have a dog with them.

Speaker 2: 45:21

Right, so yeah, and it's also, I think part of it is. You figure, if a dog likes the person, the person must be at least a little okay. That too, yeah. Also it gives you something to talk about. Yeah, oh, what a beautiful pit bull. I've always loved pit bulls or whatever it happens to be yeah Right.

Speaker 2: 45:37

So that's one thing. Another thing that I've found a lot of dogs do is this is going to sound kind of funny, but they get really upset when you argue, and so you learn to talk more rationally about things.

Speaker 1: 45:50

Yes, yep, my dog used to do that with me and my ex. He would sit and he'd get very upset. He would get. He would sit in front of me and get like worried. He wasn't, he didn't get aggressive or weird around him, but he would, he would. He could tell he was very. And then also he would remove himself from the room and go into the other room and just kind of sit there and stare at us from the other room Like he did not like it at all. This was when he was a puppy, but many moons ago. Yeah, but it made me be like you're making the dog upset. We need to take it down a little bit.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Yeah, Like exactly he's not you're really upsetting him, and it did. It worked. I mean, it was a reason for everybody to take down there. Take it down a notch, right, yeah, and it doesn't mean you can't have the conversation.

Speaker 2: 46:31

It just means you're going to have the conversation with less of a yelling tone.

Speaker 1: 46:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:35

And that often means that we so remember. How I was saying, when we're under stress, we don't think as clearly. When we're yelling at each other. We are not our best selves. Yeah, no, we are not.

Speaker 1: 46:44

Nope.

Speaker 2: 46:45

And even if we have a really valid concern we want to raise, you know we won't express ourselves the best way. So if the dog helps us tone it down, yeah, and say listen, I feel like every time I talk to you about this, we, we don't seem to make any progress. Can I please explain to you how I feel? Right, instead of yelling at the person? Right, Right, you know that's true, and then, you do the whole thing that they say.

Speaker 2: 47:06

you know, I feel like there's all these words you use that help make it less Right, less intense. I guess Heated, yes, yes, so that's another thing where I think dogs bring us together. I love that, and I think, my love is adventures with your dog bring you together. Yep. So like for me, my husband did not grow up hiking. I guess that's the best way to express it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:32

And so when I wanted to take him on hikes, he would be like, whatever, I'm not interested, yeah, then we got a dog, yep. And all of a sudden we were taking the dog on hikes and then we were sharing this hiking experience. And even without a dog, we hike, yep. So you know it's. Yeah, it can add things Like you can. You're going for walks together, right?

Speaker 2: 47:53

It gives you a chance to get off of the cell phone. Yep, Because that's one of my rules never walk a dog with a cell phone in your hand. I love that.

Speaker 1: 48:00

You can have it in your pocket.

Speaker 2: 48:00

I love that You're a doctor. There might be an emergency I get it, yeah, but I usually put mine on flight mode because there's no emergencies for me. But it brings you together to go out with your dog and have these adventures and it's like dogs are like another family member in a lot of ways and they your relationship is different when it's just the two of you and when it's the dog Right and in the ideal world and I see this a lot in most households the dog enriches their life and makes their relationship better, right, right. So yeah, there are those dogs who are squirming between your legs as you're trying to hug, but that's like 95% of dogs probably never even thought about doing that, yeah, yeah. So just remember that your dog also does. Even if your dog does do that, think about all the other things they do to make you laugh.

Speaker 1: 48:52

Take the edge off of things, make things more fun. Yeah, yeah, that's another thing.

Speaker 2: 48:57

And that's such a good point. I mean my gosh. What better example than your dog being like? I know you completely screwed up your last work project but I love you anyway.

Speaker 1: 49:06

Totally, totally Unconditional love, that's true. Aw, it's something. Well, thank you, rea. Do you have anything that you want to add?

Speaker 2: 49:15

Yeah, so I'm just going to say this is an old line that I used to say all the time, and I don't say it as much Put on your rose-colored glasses, especially if your dog is making you a little crazy, which I completely understand, and you have every right to feel those feelings. Your feelings are valid. The situation is frustrating, I get it, but put on your rose-colored glasses and start paying attention to all the things the dog does that you adore, and all the things that make you smile and all the things that make your day better, and just try to focus on those at least a little of the time. It's like doing a gratitude practice before you go to sleep.

Speaker 2: 49:53

You know, when you go to sleep, just think oh, Fifi made me smile and Fido was so funny sleeping upside down, and then Fifi and Fido playing was so much fun to watch.

Speaker 2: 50:05

And yeah, they kind of get annoying sometimes when we're watching a football game and we were like grabbing each other's hands, and we're like why are you grabbing each other's hands? This is not that exciting, but look at all these other good things they do. So sometimes just keeping that perspective is really helpful. Plus, every once in a while, your dog is going to let you know that a situation is not a great idea, like if someone comes into your home and your dog is like I don't like him and that person's not willing to work on it, then it's not right.

Speaker 2: 50:35

I don't know that that person is someone I want in my life, totally, totally.

Speaker 1: 50:39

So yeah, well, thank you, erit. Thank you, it's so much fun. I wish we could do this every week, I know. Well, maybe we can Stay tuned. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the Baroo Podcast. As always, if you enjoy the episode, please don't forget to rate and follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at Baroo Podcast. If you have a story of Canine companionship that you want to share with me, or if you have a comment or question, I would love to hear from you. You can email me, charlotte, at thebaroocom. All right, you guys, let's chat next week.