Mattie, Milo, and Me with Author Anne Abel

 When Anne, a survivor of parental abuse who sufferers from severe depression, unwittingly rescues a dog with serious aggression issues, she finds herself unable to give up on him.  In this episode I chat with The Moth story slam winner and author of her memoir " Mattie, Milo and Me, " Anne Abel.  She shares the raw and beautiful intricacies of forming an unbreakable bond with her dogs, the gut-wrenching grief of parting with a pet, and the bittersweet joy of opening her heart to another. Her journey isn't just about the dogs; it's about the life lessons they leave behind, and the patience and commitment required to embrace a rescue with a troubled past.

Useful Links:
https://anneabelauthor.com/
https://amzn.to/4aHExDR

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Thank you so much for popping on and joining me, anne. I really appreciate you sharing your story. You are the author of Maddie Milo and Me and I read your book and I was really kind of blown away by kind of the different emotions that I felt throughout the book. Your book brought me to tears in some points. I found myself laughing out loud in certain points, just grinning and really rooting for you and rooting for Milo throughout the book, throughout the story and this is a memoir, correct, right? And is this your first book?

Speaker 2: 0:46

It is. I have another one coming out fall 2025, but this is my first one.

Speaker 1: 0:52

That's fantastic, that's incredible, and it comes out in April.

Speaker 2: 0:56

Yeah, A little under. Yeah Next month.

Speaker 1: 0:59

Okay, Perfect, so what? Um? My first question for you. Question for you is what made you decide that you wanted to share your story?

Speaker 2: 1:11

A couple things.

Speaker 1: 1:13

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Maddie and Milo meant a lot to my family and me, yeah, and I think everyone deserves to be remembered. So I wanted to tell their stories and also, I think, people who. I was not a dog person. Initially I was anti-dog, but I think I learned that to say you're anti-dog is like saying you're anti-people and I never thought about the positive. I didn't realize there were positives with dogs and different dogs bring different things to a relationship, and I think Maddie and Milo were two very different dogs but they both meant a lot to me in very different ways. So I wanted to share that aspect of the story also.

Speaker 1: 2:11

Yeah, I mean it really speaks kind of to the human animal bond and how I mean those of us, myself included, who've had dogs who have unexpectedly changed their lives for the better and, kind of, you know, guided them on a healing journey and taught us things that we didn't know we needed to know and didn't know we needed to learn, and really showed up for us and had us show up for them in different ways that were really unexpected. And I think the book starts out with you having a wonderful, happy family dog, maddie, who's kind of like the quintessential, seems like the dog that everybody is hoping for, she's happy, she's snuggly.

Speaker 2: 3:01

No work, absolutely no work, zero work, no work.

Speaker 1: 3:05

You didn't even have to walk her which is like most people's dream, right? Yeah, yeah, no work. She was just kind of there giving love.

Speaker 2: 3:15

I'd say she was like a living, breathing stuffed animal who did nothing but give love and take love.

Speaker 1: 3:21

That's fantastic and that's enough. I mean that's enough for many people. That that's fantastic and that's enough. I mean that's enough for many people. That is all the healing that a lot of people need right.

Speaker 2: 3:27

It was more than enough for me.

Speaker 1: 3:30

Yeah, and then you, you know she sadly met a very tragic death in the beginning of the book and in your life and I'm so sorry that you had to go through that and you found yourself. And it also your book also speaks to the different ways that people grieve, because a lot of people I know I'm kind of jumping around a bit, but I really found it important that you know you. You felt the need for you to get a new dog right away, right Like immediately. You needed something to fill that void, to really be able to, you know, focus you and whether you knew deep down inside it was going to heal you in a whole nother way who's to say. But you knew you had to do that.

Speaker 1: 4:17

And you know many people I think you know some people say you should get a dog right away. Some people say you shouldn't get a dog, you should allow yourself to grieve. But you just kind of trusted yourself and you went out and got a new dog the next day who was very, very different than Maddie, right, I mean polar opposites.

Speaker 2: 4:38

Yeah, Milo was. He was dangerous, he was aggressive, he was out of control. When we met him we called him Mello, Milo, and the next day after we got him home, within a few hours, he was howling and prowling, jumping and humping. Then he bit my son twice. He bit my son and as I'm bandaging his bloody wrist he said I bet they sedated Milo at the rescue before we got there. And as soon as he said it, it seemed obvious to me and my first reaction was, besides being pissed, I'm taking this monster back.

Speaker 2: 5:10

But the owner of the rescue had very cleverly had us walk through the kennels and there was Milo. You know all the other dogs were at, you know clawing and barking. Milo was just curled up in a ball at a bed of rags, looking so pathetic and forlorn. So when I thought of bringing him back, taking him back, I just couldn't. I couldn't do that. I didn't know if I could live with him, but I knew I couldn't live with myself. Send him back. And I had no idea what was in store for me. I just knew I couldn't send him back. Do you really no idea? You know what was in store for me. I just knew I couldn't send him back.

Speaker 1: 5:46

Do you really think that they sedated Milo first of all before?

Speaker 2: 5:51

I'm not going to. I mean it's just our opinion. I mean it was night and day. It was night and day and I mean, and he just unraveled. He continued to unravel after we got him home. So I don't know, maybe they did meditation on him, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 6:09

Or maybe he just didn't know, because oftentimes when I talk to rescues, from what I know about shelter dogs, my dog also came from a shelter. Sometimes they do. It's such a stressful environment they don't really know. Yeah, they don't present themselves that way.

Speaker 2: 6:28

I have to say and I guess if you read the book you saw this when we went for our interview at the school, she said you know, they knew you were vulnerable. This is a hard to place dog. We were the third family in 18 months, so it wasn't like yes, so I think there was.

Speaker 1: 6:46

They should have given you a heads up. Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, To go from Maddie to this was you know was total shock, but somewhere in there he saw that you would, you guys might be the right fit, or so he says.

Speaker 2: 7:03

That I worked from home. Someone probably told him I worked. Who knows what went on behind the scenes Got it.

Speaker 2: 7:09

I remember he called me you know I spoke to, he called me right and he said oh, we have lots of dogs, but let me tell you about Milo. And I remember writing M I L O. And then he said but of course we have lots of dogs. So if you don't like Milo, so I thought, okay, maybe he's a salesman, but he's offering me other things too. I offering me other things too. I'll go see Milo. And then I guess, if in the book when, and then we fell in love with Milo immediately, and then I realized I needed to be a little bit mature about this. I said, oh, but I really wanted a small dog. He said, oh, fine, We'll put Milo back. Go in the waiting room, Milo, we met out in the meadow. But then he puts us in this tiny unleashes, this little scooter, which, who was aptly named Scooter, and he was just ricocheting off the walls. My youngest son, who is the least talkative in my family, said take Scooter back, we want Milo you know, this guy knew what he was doing.

Speaker 1: 8:12

Yeah, yeah. Well, milo was gorgeous and I used to say to people his look saved his life.

Speaker 2: 8:19

That was one of my lines.

Speaker 1: 8:20

Yeah, he was gorgeous and he had those soulful eyes. You really speak to. Also the dedication you really were really dedicated to helping Milo and Milo become, you know, a part of your family, a part of a, a part of society. Um, he had a lot of behavioral stuff but you were incredibly dedicated to him and throughout that dedication you, you ended up learning, you ended up going on your own healing journey. Um, do you want to speak to that a little bit Well?

Speaker 2: 8:50

first of all, I wanted another dog immediately Because of my depression. I needed a distraction, and he was a distraction. I mean, with Milo I had to be in the moment, every single moment, 24-7. So your usual negative thoughts and all the other things, they kind of got shoved to the back quite a bit because it was survival. It really was survival. I mean I was what was standing between Milo and his being sent back and Milo attacking the rest of the world, if not my family, so you know. So it really kept me very focused and I ended up having to learn all sorts of new things and I met all sorts of new people. You know, it took me.

Speaker 2: 9:36

I didn't know it, I was a depressed extra extrovert. I thought it was an introvert. I'm actually an extrovert. So he just pulled me into this community that I didn't even know existed, and so there were lots of good things that came out of it besides my just falling in love with and also we would do these intense things like I took him to that Bed Bath Beyond, because the teacher said you have to de-trigger him and I said, oh, so I'm taking this dog, who will attack anything that moves, and I'm taking him to a crowded place. But when you do intense things like this with another this dog, who will attack anything that moves, and I'm taking him to him, him to a crowded place. But you know, when you do intense things like this with another, whether a person or a dog, you, it's a different kind of bond than a bond where you snuggle with some. You know, you, you've been through something together.

Speaker 1: 10:25

I mean, I think it builds a relationship, yeah, and seeing the, seeing the change in your dog and going, and seeing you know the little the positive moves that they make is inspiring, oh my God, in the end, when I had to go into the woods every single day and I hated the woods, but then I would see him going soaring across.

Speaker 2: 10:53

And for those, I still get the chills when I remember that and I would see this animal who had been on this bed of rags and now here he was, having a chance to be who he wanted and needed to be. And it just there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't compare the dog I had with the dog I had seen in the rescue, and it just there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't compare the dog I had with the dog I had seen in the rescue and it just made me feel so good to think I could, I could have affected someone's life this way.

Speaker 1: 11:23

Absolutely. I know from my own, my own dog. I created my whole business after um, I have a dog care business. I have had one for 15 years and I created it because of my dog, because I wanted to spend every moment with my dog and he did have. He had severe, he had a lot of stranger danger.

Speaker 2: 11:43

He was one of the dogs.

Speaker 1: 11:45

He's a mix, he's a Heinz 57. He's like 52 pounds. Well, 62 pounds at the time, but he's now 52 pounds, um, and he's uh. Yeah, he had. He was wonderful with dogs, which was helpful for my business. But he had a lot of stranger danger, for until he was about five or six years old and I got him around a year, so it was just constant. I had to be on my toes constantly, constantly did the same thing rewarding him with treats when people would approach. He was like so nervous and he did. He bit a woman once because he got so nervous and confused. He redirected on her and so I totally can relate to that need and when I see him now, he loves people. I mean. It took years, you know. It took a long time. It took a lot of patience, but throughout that process it it helped me as well. It helped me to have that focus. What is one of the biggest things that you think Milo taught you?

Speaker 2: 12:44

Oh, um, well, or gifts, a couple of things. I was brought up brought up being told that I should ask for nothing, including help, that I was a burden. And with Milo, well, right from the beginning I had to ask for help. But then there was a point where I was going to have surgery and you know the teacher's like, no, you can't have surgery. But and I accepted help from people even though I was. You know, it made me uncomfortable, but first of all, I did it for Milo and it taught me that it's it's okay. It's okay to ask for help and when people offer, they're being, they're probably being sincere about it. So I think I learned about it being okay to not do everything on your own and just being open to receiving.

Speaker 2: 13:42

And just, I mean I'm a very persevering person but you know, just, just, constantly you know being on top of him, and you know I got a little lazy as time went on. You know I well, that was also in the book about not being I'm not an alpha. I mean that also was beaten out of me and at the very beginning I, you know, I, had to make believe I was really the alpha, but I think we both knew I wasn't. You know he, he was a smart dog and we, most of the time he played, although he played along.

Speaker 2: 14:16

But Milo, in the 10 years we had him he never bit anyone outside the family, but every year he probably bit my husband and or me. I mean, a week before he died, a thing of soup fell out of the refrigerator. My husband went to grab it. Milo bit him on the wrist and my husband said you know, that's the rule, if it hits the ground it's Milo's. But and people would see us in various bandages and say, oh, you've got to get rid of that animal. But he's not an animal, he's part of our family and that was, you know that's his glitch.

Speaker 1: 14:56

He had a glitch no one's perfect Right and you made the decision to manage that the best you could, and it could have been a lot worse had you not put in all the incredible work that you did.

Speaker 2: 15:04

I couldn't have kept him. Another thing is I had three sons and they were just so easy I mean, I didn't have to be an alpha with them and all of a sudden, you know they were always the good kids in school and everything and all of a sudden I was the mother of the bad boy. And I have to say it was a little uncomfortable in school there at the beginning, but I had to learn how to love him even though he was a bad boy, Right, and you had to learn how to love him, even though he was a bad boy Right and you had to show up for him.

Speaker 1: 15:34

And also when you have a quote unquote bad dog, your whatever it draws attention to you also so and and you think people are, yeah, and when you think people are judging you as a which is something that we've made clear here, it's not. There's no judgment on. You know, dogs are acting out because they either have not gotten historically haven't gotten the guidance that they needed, or they are fearful, or, you know, some of it can be biological and all of those things, yeah, so it doesn't mean that they're a bad dog or that you're a bad dog, mom. So, yeah, so can we speak a little bit on your process of writing, because I've mentioned here before, I recently had a writer and I don't get a lot of writers on my podcast.

Speaker 1: 16:22

Writing is something that I always wish I could do. I'm surrounded by some incredible writers. My sister is also a writer and an editor as well, and she's been doing that for many years. I cannot focus enough to save my life to sit down and really, really, you know, write. So I'm curious what some of your tricks for writer's block or if any, I mean because this is such a personal story, it may have flowed in a way that was easier than others I have to tell you you mentioned writer's block.

Speaker 2: 17:02

I have severe, severe, severe writer's block Again, growing up, every night, at the dinner table my father would say to me, you can listen but don't speak. And he actually made me be a chemical engineer as an undergraduate, even though I can't add three numbers. And then I went back to school in my forties and got an MFA and I did a lot of freelance writing. And if someone said to me, go in the backyard and write 5,000 words on that tree some editor wanted it I could do that. But if I sat down and tried to write anything about myself within a minute I'd be under the desk Like that's stupid. That's stupid, who cares, who cares. And I dealt with that. And then in 2016, my husband is a professor. We lived in Philadelphia, we went to Chicago for supposedly four months for him to visit the University of Chicago and it was December I mean January, it's eight degrees out.

Speaker 2: 17:59

I signed up for improv, because that didn't last very long and improv. I got kicked out after a while and then my dog walker came and I said what do you do when you're not walking dogs? And she said, oh, I host a storytelling open mic. You should come, you can tell a story. And I said what do you do when you're not walking dogs? And she said, oh, I host a storytelling open mic. You should come, you can tell a story. And I said, well, I'm not going to tell a story, but I'll come. And I'd never heard of storytelling.

Speaker 2: 18:18

Well, anyhow, I had something in it, one thing that I thought would be a story, which is what my second memoir is about, and I went to just to see what it, and it had to do with Bruce Springsteen. And I went to the open mic and these three guys got up and one talked about how hard it was when his wife was in labor. The other one about he went to Woodstock and he cheated on his fiance. And another one he had abused his first two wives but now he was a great human being. And I just thought and I never think this, I can do better than that.

Speaker 2: 18:48

And I thought of a story 40 years, an anecdote, and I'd never stood in front of a mic. And I got up and I said I came to learn how to tell a story about Bruce Springsteen and everyone cheers and I said but instead I'm going to tell a story about sex. I mean, it wasn't really, and they cheer even more. And I told my four minute story and people came up to me and then I did another open mic and then people started. And you know, when you get that kind of positive feedback for just telling a little story, you know, and then I started doing quite a bit of it in Chicago and then I went to the Moth.

Speaker 1: 19:24

The Moth Story Hour? Yes, of course.

Speaker 2: 19:26

They have these story slams. So someone said I'd never heard of the Moth. This is 2016, 17. And I went and then I ended up winning a couple story slams there. Then we moved to New York and my goal was to win one in New York and I actually won for the Milo story and that kind of that was another reason. And afterwards, like the next month, I was back there and I heard this man say to his girlfriend I was here last month and this woman told this amazing story about her dog and I'm like, so that kind of inspired me. You know when you get yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:02

So I had actually started writing this Bruce Springsteen story and the editor had it and it was taking a long time. This was during the lockdown, so I just sat down and I just started writing this story about Milo and in the end I realized it was a more straight forward story. So I concentrated on this one and got that one accepted. But it really helped doing this storytelling and having people actually say, yes, that's a story I want to hear more. That's what I needed.

Speaker 1: 20:39

Right, absolutely. I mean it sounds like and I'm so sorry, but it sounds that you know you really your voice was pretty much squashed growing up and so it's pretty, it's very beautiful that you were able to. It sounds like one of the first times you're really able to speak your voice.

Speaker 2: 20:59

And it's still a struggle. I mean it's still a struggle.

Speaker 1: 21:02

It's always a struggle. Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.

Speaker 2: 21:07

And so with the storytelling, I thought, well, maybe I really wanted to hone those skills. So I contacted this woman who was a storytelling coach and the first thing she said to me was, if I could make, wave a magic wand and grant you a wish, what would it be which complete? I thought you're going to ask me my goals for storytelling and I I don't know why I said it. But I said write a book. And she said well then, that's what you've got to do. And I was like so for three months I fought myself on it and I didn't do it. And I got increasingly angry at myself. And I work out every day very disciplined. And I said to him finally, I said, okay, you're going to do it. You never feel like working out, but you do it and you always feel better. You don't question it. So you're going to do the same thing with writing. Okay, after you work out, you're just going to go sit down at your desk at 11 o'clock and you're going to sit there till one and you're just going to write.

Speaker 2: 22:02

And so what I ended up doing was I just wrote anything that came into my head about this story with Bruce Springsteen, because if I started censoring it, I'd be shut down again, and the first draft was a thousand pages. I mean the final one's 350. But anything that ever happened to me in my life was in that manuscript, because I was afraid, yeah, you know, if I went down that um so. So part of it's just the discipline. Yeah, you just say, okay, you're just going to sit here, yeah, and see what happens. If you can just get into it like, and I would have a muse, like my husband, I have a good friend and my husband and I would what I actually would write to them like that's who I was writing for um, and then I would show it.

Speaker 2: 22:53

My husband's not a writer, and then afterwards I'd show it to me and go okay, that's good, that's good, yeah, you know. But so I had these two people in my mind. You know very, very positive people, you know, and so I use them as my muses.

Speaker 1: 23:10

I love that. As I've always said, like you know, it's the same as dog training positive reinforcement and positive associations. It really works. It really works. Especially, you know, no one wants to people shut down when you're negative and or they lash out. They shut down or lash out, but when it's positive, it's encouraging and it makes you want to do more, it makes you want to do better, it makes you want to keep going. So it really does work. It's your own form of treats happening Right, right, right.

Speaker 2: 23:42

So, or if you do do this, then you can go and do this you know, just do this get a donut, or whatever, go shopping right whatever um exactly I also love that and you, you, you touched on this.

Speaker 1: 23:55

But, um, circling back to the book, how your memoir, how how you realize that people are actually rooting for you, cause sometimes, um, like especially at that moment when you needed to get surgery and people were actually saw you, they saw you. You know, it's like a moment where you're actually being seen by somebody, especially given your, your history.

Speaker 2: 24:14

It was shocking to me when I would hear I mean even you know, all through the years, when I'd hear that I would have to stop and step out of myself and look at myself through these people's eyes, see what they were seeing, cause it was just um, it was so unknown to me, unimaginable.

Speaker 1: 24:36

Right, these dogs help us in so many ways we just don't really. We have no idea.

Speaker 2: 24:42

At the end of the book. When I get Yat, I get this little chihuahua. Well, I want to tell you a couple of things. So he's 19 and a half now. Oh my gosh. Yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 24:56

I was going to ask you if they were still with you.

Speaker 2: 24:59

Yeah, and I have two rescue Bichons who are a little younger than he is. They're like 14. I think of them as young, but anyhow. So I hired this dog walker a little over a year ago and I didn't know. But she has a three and a half pound, 14 year old blind Chihuahua and she's she's in her early thirties. And then then last year I had all these Achilles tendon problems. I had a boot on. You know all this stuff and my husband works in Philadelphia during the week and I'm here alone and I couldn't handle. You know, ryan, you know he was 18 and a half then. He's just so much work.

Speaker 1: 25:38

So you changed his name to Ryan.

Speaker 2: 25:40

Ryan, yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, so she would take him to her house Mondays through Thursday and he'd be with her. Her little dog's name is Africa. They're from Russia, okay, and recently Russia. And then this is a funny story but my granddaughter is only allowed to wear dresses to weddings. She's seven, six, and she loves dresses and we had no more weddings. So I got this idea last June that we would have this wedding and I want you to know we had December 29th. We had the most beautiful wedding here with these two little dogs. Oh, I love it.

Speaker 2: 26:19

It was. You know the grandchildren and friends. You know they guided the dogs. We had the whole. We wore, my husband wore a suit, I wore the dress. I wore to my son's wedding, and it was, it was. It was one of the nicest events. I mean, there weren't many guests, but it was like it was a celebration of longevity. It was a celebration of longevity, it was a celebration of connections and everybody was just there for the right, you know, just celebrate these two dogs. It was joy anyhow ryan's got.

Speaker 2: 26:51

Yeah, it was just beautiful. I mean, it was really nice. Meanwhile, ryan is completely incontinent. My husband's 71, he comes and you know he he would be up four times a night putting ryan out and cleaning the back. I mean, yeah, well, actually I took one look at my husband on saturday and I could just see and I texted anna. So ryan is now living with anna and anna's moving to Tampa and then she's moving to LA and then she's moving to LA and she's such an amazing person. She said to me she came over here to pick something up and she said I feel like I hit the jackpot. Now I have two. So, anyhow, I have two sons who got married and they moved to California. And my husband said this weekend well, it's just the way it is in our family Our boys get married and they move to.

Speaker 1: 27:45

California.

Speaker 2: 27:47

Anyhow, you know, it's kind of bittersweet because we love this dog so much, but it's just really hard when you get old, when you're getting older. No, absolutely, when you have old dogs and old people.

Speaker 1: 27:59

You know it's difficult, but I think you manage that in a really responsible and loving way and I think the people need to. You know that's something that people can take away, because you made sure that that you saw an opportunity to give that dog care the kind of care in a comfortable way that it needed, and then he was fine with and also taking care of yourself, because we also do need to take care of ourselves. You know, and caretaking an older dog is can be tough. I mean, it's just like caretaking anything needs a lot of tender, loving care and time can be rough physically and emotionally and all the things.

Speaker 2: 28:34

She told me a funny story Ryan, he does this twirling.

Speaker 1: 28:38

I don't know if other dogs I don't know.

Speaker 2: 28:40

He's unable, he just twirls and he can't any longer calm himself down and you know I'll rub him. Yeah, but she said he'll start twirling and then Africa, his wife, will bark at him and he'll look at her and go oh, that's so funny.

Speaker 2: 28:55

It's like they're like a little couple. She said he likes to sleep, but she said she'll get ready to take Afrika for a walk and Afrika will be jingling and Ryan looks up, you know. So there is a dynamic between I think there is a synergy having the two of them. Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1: 29:15

When Milo passed after many years I mean 10 years you had Milo 10. You also decided to go get another two other dogs, and this is when you found what was his name. What was Ryan's name before?

Speaker 2: 29:30

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:31

And one other. And the other guy was is he still with us Spam?

Speaker 2: 29:36

No no.

Speaker 1: 29:37

When those two came into your life. How did that? What were the lessons that they taught you, do you think? Because they were very different. They were much easier perhaps, and oh my God.

Speaker 2: 29:47

Yeah, one was Sam the little Bichon. Yeah, he was a year old and some woman had. He clearly had been loved his whole life and he was just. Ryan was a little jittery, you know, he'd been on the side of a puppy mill, I guess, but he just needed to really be loved and he calmed down. But about 10 years ago I was on the beach with Ryan and then these two other Bichons I have and this man about 70, came over to me to talk and I said, oh, do you have a dog? He said well, I used to, but I just can't go through the heartbreak anymore and it is hard. You forget how horrible it is until it happens and people who don't have animals don't understand it. On the other hand, by going out and opening up again, you know you bring in more. You're giving yourself a chance to get more love, you know given. So I mean. So I know it's heartbreaking and it's easy to say, oh, I can do it, but I think eventually you do fall in love with the next one, yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:59

No, that's something that I'm going to keep with me, because, yeah, I've never heard someone say it quite in that way. Because, yeah, you are, you're keeping yourself open to love. You're not shutting down, so you're not holding on to the pain, you're just finding a place for, and that can come within time for some, but you're not allowing yourself to shut down. You are staying open and keeping that energy moving and, if not you, for the creature that might need your love right.

Speaker 2: 31:24

Right, I mean truth. Like when we got Milo at the rescue and my kids wanted to. They wanted to wait for Maddie's memory, but I knew I needed. I said, look, just think about it. If we get a dog at a rescue today, at least one creature in this world would be better off for Maddie dying. I mean, it was just such a horrible thing. At least someone, someone will be better off for it, right?

Speaker 1: 31:53

Right, absolutely. This is such a beautiful story and I know it's your memoir and it's in, and what is the one thing that you hope the reader takes away from reading your memoir?

Speaker 2: 32:06

Even if you're not a pet person or an animal person. I think the one of the important things to understand with people or dogs is if you understand an individual's unique characteristics, it really helps you build a bridge to creating a relationship with that person or with that dog or with that living being. You know. If you understand what the other living being is coming from, it helps you reach out and make that connection.

Speaker 1: 32:40

I mean, like as I got to understand Milo, you know it was easier for me to meet him with what he needed, finding that common ground and yeah, and nurturing it, yeah, and also individuality.

Speaker 2: 33:00

I think it's important in people and it's important in appreciating no two people and no two dogs are alike and you just have to, when you get your new dog you know, appreciate it for what he or she is.

Speaker 1: 33:15

I really appreciate you sharing your story with us because it really touches on a lot of the gifts that you know our dogs give us, and I can see how it would be therapeutic for you to write that as well.

Speaker 2: 33:26

And remember these creatures, these living beings.

Speaker 1: 33:30

Yeah, memorialize them Absolutely. I love that Well. Thank you, anne. I so appreciate you joining me.

Speaker 2: 33:38

Thank you All right.