From the Archives : Protecting Your Pets from Holiday Hazards

Re- Release : Dr. Lindsey Wendt co- hosts our chat with Dr. Renee Schmid, a veterinary toxicologist from Pet Poison Helpline, who sheds light on the all-too-common issue of toxicity in pets during the festive period. From chocolate to poinsettias, human medications, decorations,  xylitol,  marijuana and more.  Dr. Schmid  highlights the common everyday hazards that pets may fall prey to, underscoring the importance of keeping these items out of their reach. 
She  also offers practical advice for when your furry friend ingests something potentially toxic. Learn the vital importance of staying calm, gathering information, and understanding how certain substances can affect your pet. We wrap up with a look at the crucial role of veterinary clinics and public education in raising awareness about toxin concerns. 

Originally published 2023

Useful Links:

Pet Poison Helpline : 1-855-764-7661
Website : https://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introductions
• 2:55 Why Holiday Months Drive Poison Calls
• 5:15 Houseguests, Medications, And Supplement Risks
• 7:20 Chocolate Basics And Seasonal Spikes
• 10:15 Xylitol Dangers, Signs, And Timing
• 14:20 Label Reading And Peanut Butter Pitfalls
• 16:56 Poinsettias, Lilies, And Plant Myths
• 20:25 Wreaths, Yew, And Christmas Tree Concerns
• 24:20 Chocolate Toxicity By Type And Dose
• 28:40 When To Call For Help And What To Expect
• 33:05 Tools, Calculators, And Bad Online Advice
• 36:40 Hydrogen Peroxide: When It’s Appropriate
• 40:20 Building A Home Toxicity Toolkit
• 43:10 Urine Drug Tests And Treating The Signs
• 46:05 THC Exposures, Edibles, And Care
• 51:20 Garlic, Onions, And Hemolysis Risks
• 55:05 Under-The-Radar Toxins And Pain Meds
• 59:20 Grapes, Raisins, And Tartaric Acid Theory
• 1:02:10 Toxin Tails And Closing Resources
• 1:04:10 Hotline, Thanks, And Final CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:01

Dogs make the best companions for humans. This podcast aims to help make humans better companions for their dogs. Welcome to the Baruch Podcast, a modern lifestyle podcast for dogs and their people. I'm your host, Charlotte Bain. I've been caring for other people's dogs for more than 15 years. And while I've learned a lot in my career, I definitely don't know it all. So I've collected an ever-evolving roster of amazing dog people. And I learn new things from them all the time. Hi you guys, thanks so much for joining me for this episode of the Varu Podcast. I'm thrilled to have Dr. Lindsay Wendt back again as my co-host. And today we are chatting with veterinary toxicologist Dr. Renee Schmidt. In today's episode, we discuss potential holiday hazards that the pet may encounter and ingest as well as those everyday toxins from chocolate to medication and even your weed. She also offers practical advice for when your furry friend may ingest something potentially toxic and why it's important to remain calm and call the Pet Poison Hotline or contact your veterinarian for advice. So this is an important one. Let's jump into the chat. Thank you so much for joining us. Um we are talking about toxicity in our animals and our pets, specifically dogs, since this is a dog podcast. Um do you want to introduce yourself, a tad and let us know a little bit?

SPEAKER_00: 1:45

Yeah, you bet. I'm Renee Schmidt. I'm a veterinary toxicologist with Pet Poison Helpline. I've been with Pet Poison Helpline for just over 10 years now, and also the manager of veterinary medicine and professional services there. I'm a Kansas State graduate, very proud Kansas State graduate. And I've been uh, you know, toxicology was something that I never really had a huge passion for when I was in vet school or out in practice. I always kind of enjoyed it. But as time went on, I found that it really allowed the blending of the things that I like to do and solving all the pieces of the puzzle, putting the pieces of the puzzle together when animals get into things. So it's been a very enjoyable uh sector of veterinary medicine.

SPEAKER_02: 2:30

That's fantastic. I wanted to focus today, just right now, specifically have some questions since we're jumping into the holidays. Um, I wanted to talk about a little bit about some of the things that you find that pets may get into over the holiday season. And if you see an uptick in cases during this time of year versus during uh other times of year.

SPEAKER_00: 2:54

Yeah, absolutely. So November and December are generally our busiest two months out of the year with calls. And so we definitely see a pretty large uptick in those two months. And it varies from just the regular things that animals generally kind of get into. But when we step back and we think about it as you know, pet owners and family members, we're kind of um a little bit discombobulated these these last couple months of the year. We've got uh changes to our schedule, we have a lot of different things going on. So maybe even the most in-tune pet parents, or maybe somebody who's really diligent about keeping things out of reach for their pets, they just kind of get off kilter a little bit. And so they might leave something sitting out. Or when we have house guests, a lot of times there's a lot of traveling going on. And so when you have somebody that's coming over to your house and visiting, and they have that suitcase or that bag on the floor, and their medications are there, and then the animal gets into it. So, really common things in that manner that we see that we get calls from that animals have gotten into.

SPEAKER_02: 3:59

I just had my mom was just here last week for the week, and I had to keep repeatedly reminding her to put her medication on top of on the kitchen counter, not like next to her bed, and get the stuff off the floor constantly. I would luckily my dog could care less about that stuff, but still it's it's if something you know, you never know. So she's just not used to it. Yeah, you never know.

SPEAKER_00: 4:22

Yeah, yeah, you never know. And my my kind of phrase for the holiday is to anybody who's coming over to your house, you know, ask them right away, do you have any medications? Let's put it up in a counter for up in the counter or up in a cabinet for you to get it out of the way just so it doesn't even become an issue. And even supplements, you know, a lot of a lot of people they think that if it's over the counter and it's a healthy supplement for them, it's healthy for their pets as well. So they don't think about the dog that maybe gets into a bottle of multivitamins or a bottle of their vitamin D3 supplements. And so even any any little thing that that a person might take, whether it be prescription medication or just a natural supplement, let's get it off the floor. Let's make sure it's it's out of reach.

SPEAKER_02: 5:08

Make sure there's no risk at all, even if you know we don't really know. Are there common things that dogs get into over the holidays that we need to be prepared? Or should we just cross the board, just make sure everything is out of your pet's reach, just to be cautious?

SPEAKER_00: 5:21

Yeah, you know, so human medications for sure. You know, obviously, just make sure those are out of their reach. Chocolate, they love to get into chocolate all of the time, but Christmas time is actually the holiday where we see them the highest number of calls with animals getting into chocolate. And I think it's just one because of you know, parties and celebrations, people are baking more, they're getting gifts, baked goods, they're putting chocolate products under the tree. You know, there's just a lot more out there for them to get into. And so we see that um quite a bit. And then also around the holidays and really all year round, but the holidays as well, the lilies, so true lilies that we have to be concerned about with cats. There's a lot of holiday decorations when you order a nice, beautiful holiday centerpiece that will have the you know, nice large, brilliant white lilies that are in there, those are usually going to be true lilies and can cause kidney failure in cats. And we see those, you know, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day, they're all around, but we can't forget about that in the Christmas time as well. And then anything that could potentially contain xylitol. So any of those food products during your baking time, if you are somebody who uses xylitol instead of sugar, be sure and really keep that out of reach for your pet. Um, an animal that gets into pure xylitol, you know, baking powder, it takes a very, very small amount for them to have significant issues.

SPEAKER_02: 6:52

And what do those issues like, what do those issues look like?

SPEAKER_00: 6:56

Yeah, so if they were to get into xylitol, they can have a drop in blood sugar. And so with that um drop in blood sugar called hypoglycemia, they can develop kind of uh difficulty walking, ataxia, they're pretty sluggish, they can even have tremors and seizures occurring. And then if they get into a large enough amount, which depending on the size of the dog, may still be very little, they can actually have liver failure and they can die from liver failure. And some signs of that would also be vomiting, maybe some yellow discoloration to their gums and to their eyes and skin. If that happens, they're they've probably been sick quite a bit before, you know, before the pet owner sees that, but they're just really off and significantly lethargic or sluggish.

SPEAKER_02: 7:46

How long does it take for that to kick in, like immediately, you were saying, or like hours or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:54

So they can start to vomit within about 30 minutes after getting into xylitol. Their blood sugar can drop in that time frame, but usually within the first two hours. And it can last, they can have that low blood sugar for up to two days in some cases. And then the liver changes, we can see blood work changes within just a couple of hours, but liver failure itself usually is going to be around that 24 hours or the day after they've gotten into it. The good news I would say about xylitol, if um, I know we're just talking mainly about dogs, but for any of anyone who has multi-pets or um has some cats in the household, cats that um don't have an issue with xylitol. And so it's really that big concern with dogs. And I always like to call, you know, if you have an assassin cat in your household, so the one that likes to be up on the countertop and knock things over for the dog, you know, in hopes of being the only pet in the household, and just to be aware of that, not a concern for cats, but definitely the dogs we have to be really concerned with.

SPEAKER_02: 9:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 9:02

And then this is more of a technical question, but I actually I was not aware that it was only a toxicity for dogs. What is the underlying, I guess, like pathology behind that? Because usually cats are more sensitive.

SPEAKER_00: 9:16

Yeah, isn't that cats rarely cats cats rarely draw the long straw? They usually get the short straw and a lot of things. And we don't know why. We don't know why cats are affected differently. And it's actually very species-specific with xylitol. So cattle have have a um are have a toxicity to xylitol, but it's it's a much larger amount, and how they would be exposed to it would be very minimal or rare. Um, there's been studies that were done way back in like the 60s and 70s where they looked at cattle and pigs and horses and rabbits, and you know, they all have um some degree of toxicity, but the amount that they would need to get into is very different. And we don't know why cats are resistant to it, but it's one of those things where it's like embrace we'll we'll embrace it for for those cat lovers out there.

SPEAKER_01: 10:11

Definitely. And then I know one thing that I've been seeing a lot more is xylitol being in peanut butter. So is can you speak to that too? Because that's been, it seems like more of a trend so that people can't just necessarily grab any peanut butter off the shelf. They really need to be reading the label.

SPEAKER_00: 10:27

Yeah, and you know, we used to think back, you know, years ago, we would say if it says it's sugar-free, look for xylitol. And now there's xylitol in a lot of products that don't say anything about being sugar-free. And there's even products that contain xylitol in sugar. And so now it's anything that would potentially require a flavor in the mouth, look for xylitol, is what I kind of say. So don't stop at sugar-free, don't make an assumption anywhere, one way or the other. And as far as the peanut butter goes, so far we have not found any what I call mainstream peanut butter. So if you were to go to the main aisles of your grocery store and get either the the um the grocery store brand or you know, some of those like GIF and Skippies, I haven't so far seen xylitol, even with their low sugar natural products. Most of them are in, I call them the boutique y brands. So you know, kind of go in that whole food section, maybe they're more of the organic. They're kind of those specialty brands. And that's where we could potentially see more xylitol. That being said, I would always look, you know, check if you're going to give xylit uh peanut butter to your dog, make sure check you check the bottle because manufacturers can change their ingredients at any time. But so far, most of that's going to be those specialty brands. There are some peanut butter spreads that have different flavors, different types of flavors, not just peanut butter flavor. And so those are some of the ones that we're starting to see xylitol in as well.

SPEAKER_02: 12:04

Wow. Can I circle back to holidays really quickly one more time? Poinsettias, are they toxic to dogs? I I, you know, I have a dog care business, so I have dogs in and out of here. And so I want to decorate for the holidays, but I'm always really cautious, as you mentioned. Um, and I've read Mick, I've read Mick's things. So what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_00: 12:26

Yeah. So by definition, poinsetas are toxic because they create a negative effect when they're when they're ingested. The good news is that they cause stomach upset. Okay. So they're not going to be, they're not going to be fatal unless, let's say that that very rare dog that maybe keeps eating and eating and eating the poinsetas and is vomiting and diarrhea and becoming dehydrated, and the owner isn't noticing it and isn't seeking treatments, you know, something like that, where they're having some some other effects from it. But otherwise, usually it's just going to be some mild stomach upset, maybe some vomiting, maybe some loose stool. Usually it's going to correct itself on its own. So I wouldn't hesitate to put a poinsetta in my house. So I have dogs and cats, and I won't hesitate to put it in there. But if one of them just refuses to stop eating it, I may try to put it up higher just because I don't want the mess, but I it's not something that we would ever expect to be fatal.

SPEAKER_02: 13:30

That's good, good to know.

SPEAKER_00: 13:32

Yeah, yeah. Another holiday decoration. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh no, I was just gonna say it's it's probably the the biggest holiday myth that okay. Good.

SPEAKER_02: 13:40

I'm glad I yeah, okay. Yeah, I mean, I don't want stomach upset in any of my guys either, you know, but still, but at least I know I'm not, you know, putting them in danger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:52

Yeah, yeah. And I treat them very differently as opposed to like the lilies, the true lilies. If you have a cat in your house, I would I would not have a I would not have a true lily with cats in the house. And I love lilies, they're beautiful flowers. But if you're gonna have a cat in the house, keep the lilies away. Poinsetas, uh how about it? Put them in there. But if the dog or cat continues to chew on it, knead on it, and have stomach upset, then try to put it someplace that makes it more difficult to get.

SPEAKER_02: 14:19

Dr. Lindsay, you had another holiday question.

SPEAKER_01: 14:22

I was gonna say um other decorations. So, like I've heard U plants, um, and then also I was wondering if you could address like Christmas trees, because I know they can be a toppling issue, but what about the water or like licking the resin or the sap or any other plants that tend to be more holiday?

SPEAKER_00: 14:40

Yeah, yeah, you bet. So, ew plants, Japanese ewes are probably the most common in the United States, and a lot of times they are used to build to make um wreaths for garland just because of their availability, their durability. And so you may have a wreath in your house, a live wreath that actually isn't made of like pine or fir, but is made of you. And that's something that's um very toxic. It contains what we call cardiac glycosides. So these are heart toxins, they cause heart um blood pressure, heart rate, arrhythmias, rhythm issues, and can definitely be fatal. So that would probably be one as well that if I had a dog or a cat in the household, um, I would watch my wreath carefully to make sure that if it starts to die and fall, you know, fall down, that I take care of it at that point. And then um, and then the Christmas tree. So the Christmas tree, it has, you know, come is some essential oils and the sap that's in there can be very irritating to the stomach and the intestinal tract. The water itself isn't usually going to be much of an issue. The little fertilizer or plant food, tree food that gets poured in there, that usually is not a big issue either if they get into a little bit of that. Where it becomes more problematic is depending on uh how you care for the tree and what you read, some people will put aspirin in their in their tree water. And so that is definitely problematic, more so for cats. And when I think about the tree stand and the tree water underneath the tree, my dog can't get to it, but my cats sure can. And so that's something to be to be cautious of as far as that goes. But the tree itself, the pine needles or the fur needles, whatever they're uh ingesting, those are definitely irritating. And if they can ingest enough of them, could potentially cause an obstruction if they, you know, if they're really going to town on it, but not a huge concern as far as toxicity goes.

unknown: 16:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 16:55

Can I um I want to circle back again? Again, I'm circling back. I want to focus on chocolate because I um I've also heard mixed things about chocolate. Is it that it's different kinds of chocolate that can cause an issue? The amount of chocolate. I've certainly had dogs who've had like a chocolate chip cookie and they were and I was freaking out and they were completely fine. My sister's dog has eaten batches of chocolate chip cookies and had to have his stomach pumped like maybe three or four times during his lifetime, just to be safe. Um, he was definitely like a you know countersurfer. Um, but can we kind of uh because that's a really common toxin uh in in our pets, and then we hear a lot about it. Can we really kind of dive into that and and talk about some of the best or some of the realities and what we need to look for?

SPEAKER_00: 17:45

Absolutely. So with chocolate, and this is goes for dogs or cats, so whichever, if you have a mixed household, it works for either animal, it really is going to depend on several things. Like you mentioned, how much did they get into? Because in toxicology, the dose makes the poison. And so while something may be toxic, there's always an amount that needs to be ingested or exposed to before it's actually an issue. And then we have to think about what kind of chocolate. So you alluded to that as well. If uh easy kind of rule of thumb, I think about the less sweet chocolates, the more concerning they are. So there's a component in chocolate that's called theobromine, and that's the biggest concern. It also contains caffeine but small amounts, and so we don't usually get too worried about that. It's the theobromine portion that's more problematic. And so the the higher uh percentage of like real chocolate, full chocolate is gonna be more concerning. So think about your baker's chocolate, your maybe your 90% and higher uh dark chocolate cacao or pure chocolate, pure cacao. Uh, think about your semi-sweet chocolates, and then kind of go down from there. So we have dark chocolate in different percentages. And I think in order to be named a dark chocolate, if I remember right, it needs to be around 50 or 52% cacao or dark chocolate cacao, that there's different, there's varying percentages. And so that's gonna vary the amount of theobromine that's in there, and then work our way down to milk chocolate that's nice and sweet, and then go to white chocolate, which really just has some cocoa butter in it, not much theobromine at all. And so if you were to take a 10-pound dog that ingested one Hershey kiss versus a 10-pound dog that ingested the same amount of baker's chocolate, could have very different effects with that. So one Hershey kiss in a dog, probably not gonna be a big issue, but that same amount in a in a 100% pure chocolate or baker's chocolate could definitely be a concern in our in our small dogs. And so the weight of the dog is going to really make that issue, make that change or determination as well as to how much can they get into.

SPEAKER_02: 20:06

That makes sense. And does it present itself the same way, the the ta the uh the effects of the toxicity like vomiting, diarrhea, or what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00: 20:15

So people can yeah, you better call Yeah. So what what I suggest is you know call us, call us before panicking, call us before taking matters into your own hands. We unfortunately get calls from extremely well-meaning pet owners that actually cause more harm with uh trying to treat the pet and then calling us. And we have to say, well, what they got into isn't problematic, but what you've done is. And so now you do need to go into the into the veterinarian. But I would say that, you know, anything over that Hershey Kiss, you know, let's uh call and see. Because what we can do is we can do calculations to determine based on what it is that they got into and based on their pet size, how problematic is this going to be? And there's kind of different layers of chocolate poisoning that we get concerned with. So any animal that gets into chocolate can develop stomach upset because it's it's a it's a rich food. And so they may vomit, they may have some loose stool, they could even develop pancreatitis, so an inflammation of the pancreas because they're trying to digest this rich food. And that doesn't even have to be a toxic level, it can be a small amount. And then as they ingest more of that, then we can see a high heart rate, we can see a high blood pressure, they're antsy, they're agitated, they're kind of you know restless, they're kind of bouncing around a lot. Maybe they have some body tremors. As this keeps going up, we can see some heart rhythm problems and changes, we can see seizures developing. Um, it definitely can be fatal depending on how much they get into. Fortunately, I think pet owners know a lot about chocolate in the sense of this could be bad, and they recognize signs and they get therapy. Most animals, if they get treated for early on, do extremely well. We've had cases that unfortunately don't go as well, are usually ones where they just they they waited it out. And so then it was too long to do any type of kind of decontamination or try to trying to get rid of some of that chocolate that they've ingested, and then they end up having some really significant signs.

unknown: 22:30

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 22:33

And one thing I actually wanted to um ask you. So I know as a veterinarian, because I used to practice emergency medicine, I became very used to calling you all for many cases, but I also had access to a calculator where I myself could determine, okay, this is the amount of chocolate that they ate, this is their weight. What range of concern is this in? Are there any resources like that available to pet parents so that, you know, especially during the holidays when I know, you know, pet poison hot like you get inundated with calls. So sometimes the wait times can be long. Um are there other options for pet parents as a resource?

SPEAKER_00: 23:09

You know, that's a great question. And I'm not, I don't know of any that are out there available. You know, that calculator, and and there's one that's, you know, it's it's limited to veterinary members of a particular organization for continuing education and things that's available. I'm not aware of one that's out there for pet parents themselves. And you could certainly go to our website, just petpoisonhelpline.com. You could type in chocolate, and there's some information there that kind of helps guide you as to what kind they got into and things like that. But I'm not sure it's going to actually do kind of the calculations for you. The one thing that I would also mention is that there are a lot of, you know, there's a lot of different technology out there now. There's AI, there's a lot of chat places where you can chat in and ask questions. And I would really encourage everyone to use caution with those. We've played around with them, we've tested them. A lot of it is not right, some of it is accurate. It's difficult for a pet owner to know what's right and what isn't because the answer that's given is very confident. And so it's really something where I would highly encourage someone to contact their veterinarian. If they're not available, contact an animal poison control center, like pet poison helpline, and really get the information that you need. And I know there's a fee, and a lot of people are hesitant to pay the fee, but let's get the right information. If we can save you a trip into the emergency clinic, if we can save you from getting additional care, um, you know, it it's it's well worth the money and the peace of mind, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01: 24:54

As an emergency veterinarian, I know for me, when people would come in, despite what the patient might have eaten, I oftentimes would call a poison hotline so that I could have guidance on how to treat and to give them more information. So I one thing I started encouraging a lot of pet parents to do is if they can, call when they're on their way to the emergency hospital so that we can then take that case number, call and have more immediate attention. So I was wondering if there's any other kind of tips that you have for pet parents. Like I know another one I used to tell people is whatever they eat, grab the packaging, grab your pet, get in the car and start driving to the emergency hospital. And if you can, safely call while you're on your way. But are there any other kind of tips or tricks that we can do to make you know our jobs together easier and then increase the rate of care that they're receiving?

SPEAKER_00: 25:44

Yeah, you bet. So your tips are excellent. And a lot of times if that pet owner or pet parent can call, you know, when they're en route or before they've left their home, and we may be able to save them the trip from going in and say you're okay to wait, or maybe they didn't think about grabbing that packaging, or maybe, you know, there's we get plenty of calls where the they they leave in a panic. And and I would do the same thing. When I, when something happens with my pets, I am no longer a veterinarian. I am a panicked, uh, concerned owner. And it logic kind of flies out the window because there are family members, and so we're really concerned about them. And so it's very normal for pet owners to panic. But that's probably my first tip is to say, don't panic, you know, take a step, take a breath, and really think about gather all of that packaging as you said, if there's medication, if there's pills that are strung out on the floor, grab as many as you can, try to get as much information about the exposure as possible. So when you go to your veterinarian, if you tell them that your pet ingested some rat, um, some green rat bait, it's not going to, it's not going to guide them into what needs to be done. And I think that's another kind of common misconception is people often think that rat baits have the same treatment, same active ingredient, and they don't. They have very different mechanisms and very different outcomes. And so just finding all of that information that you can to either give to your veterinarian or to give to pet poison helpline so that we can make that best assessment. It's very natural for pet owners to be a little bit discouraged when they call in because they say, All I know is that they got into bait and you should help me know what this is. And unfortunately, we kind of need some more information. And so if they can have some packaging available to them, if we can know how much it is that they got into, you know, if they got into that bottle of ibuprofen, what what was it to begin with? How many were in there to begin with? How long have you been using it? Or a prescription medication. Sometimes we take our, we s we send those owners back into their pharmacy and say, we'll find out what that milligram strength was, when it was filled, you know, how many times are you taking it a day to try and get an idea as to how much is there? And so those are all things that can be very helpful at determining what it is that what if it's going to be an issue or not, what it is that they got into and how much of a problem it is.

SPEAKER_02: 28:16

I had uh, if I can share a story, I had um a client who, when he was five, we and we're not a hundred percent sure what he ate, but it was incredibly scary. He we're pretty sure it was rat bait. Um he ended up in the emergency vet for nearing three weeks. Um, essentially, he was a rare case. They kept him, they the they had his family had lots of resources, so they opted to keep keep it going. And they had vets calling from all over trying to, you know, because it was a case study, but they end up he he ended up living a long, long life. He he passed away at about 15. So, but um, but uh he they think that it was either rat bait or they kept asking about vitamin D, um, like if they had eaten in some like like cortisone, like uh, you know, like uh uh dermatology cream or something like that. So is it one of the and we couldn't no one claimed that, but the only thing we could think of that he was he was a golden retriever, so he got into everything out in the world. So we figured he must have picked up some sort of rat poison. It was really, really scary. I mean, essentially they kept him alive while it worked through his system and they flushed it all out of his system. I mean, it was it was very scary, and he was very lucky, but we had that firsthand experience. So what are you saying that that their different rat poison does different things? Is so you never do that.

SPEAKER_00: 29:37

Yeah. Yeah. So that there's three main types of rat and mouse baits that are sold for kind of residential use. One of them is colecalciferol, which is which is vitamin D3. Oh my god. I always say I think the market, I think the marketing people decided, well, we can't call it vitamin D3 because people use it as a supplement. So let's call it by its other name colicalciferol, but they're the same thing, and uh and takes a very small amount to be problematic for dogs or cats. And this can cause high calcium blood calcium levels, which then can cause damage to multiple organs, including the sensitive kidneys, and can cause kidney failure to occur. So that's probably why they thought it was either a rat bait or a vitamin D supplement, because the the effects are the same. And then one of the other types of rodenicide would be bromethylene. And bromethylene causes brain swelling to occur, so it causes neurologic issues, completely different than coli calciferol. And the amount that the animal has to get into is different than coli calciferol. And then the most what we call traditional, the ones that people think about most frequently are the anticoagulants. Those are the ones that cause bleeding issues to occur. There's multiple different active ingredients in that same class, and those have been around the longest for sure, but they're also being phased out to an extent because of the uh the EPA makes decisions as to what can be sold here and there. And several of them have been phased out or banned because of the negative effects on wildlife and trying to kind of preserve the wildlife population. And those cause bleeding issues to occur. So if you think about those three different things, we have calcium and kidney failure, we have brain swelling, we have bleeding issues, the treatments are all going to be very different. And so if we make an assumption that it's this one or that one, we may be completely missing the boat in some of these cases.

SPEAKER_02: 31:47

We got very lucky there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:50

For sure. So one thing that I have been seeing that's gaining a lot of popularity is of there's an actual product that is being plugged in many social media channels that's an activated charcoal. And it's small little charcoal beads, and people and it has a high price point as well, but people are being urged like buy this so that if your dog gets into chocolate or this or that, and they're just listing all of these things, like give this, basically insinuating to give that and then seek out veterinary care, or just give that and you know, kind of care for your pet yourself. I was curious your opinion on that, because I know as a practitioner, activated charcoal is not always recommended. And then oftentimes when they do ingest things, we're actually inducing vomiting. So the concern of them aspirating or accidentally inhaling that charcoal that the pet parent gave with good intentions could end up causing more damage than if they would have just waited and pursued treatment through a veterinary.

SPEAKER_00: 32:50

For sure. Um, I'm glad you brought it up. It is something that came out just a couple of months ago. And reading up on the product, there's there is some concern about the the way that it is marketed, as you mentioned, to give it and then figure out what it is later. Um, it is charcoal doesn't bind to everything, it doesn't work for every toxin. And sometimes we do want to induce vomiting first. And sometimes we wouldn't want to give charcoal, even if it doesn't work, there may be other reasons why we wouldn't want to give it. And so I think it's a great product in the sense that if an owner doesn't have another resource, maybe they're three hours away from a from a clinic. We've talked to pet owners who they live on an island and the the ferry isn't coming until tomorrow, or it's a blizzard and they cannot get out. And so being guided to do that is something that there could definitely be benefit for. But I I am a bit concerned with using that first off. Um, personally, as a veterinary toxicologist, I would never give my pet turqual before knowing if it is necessary or doing anything else first. So I would encourage pet parents who have that or if they're considering that, talk with your veterinarian first, talk with pet poison helpline first, talk with the experts, find out what needs to be done and if it should be even given.

SPEAKER_02: 34:29

Um along those same lines, what about um the hydrogen? I think it's hydrogen peroxide. I've had uh at times when some of my clients have had eaten chocolate or chops chip cookies, I've had uh their parents text me instead of texting instead of texting the vet um uh for whatever reason and and say maybe I should give up you know hydrogen peroxide. Um what are your thoughts on that? That is uh is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Is it just depends on the situation? Oh yeah, it's both.

SPEAKER_00: 35:00

Yeah. Well, in my opinion, I think um, I think that hydrogen peroxide is a very polarizing topic in toxicology. You'll have veterinarians who will be for it and you'll have veterinarians who will be absolutely against it. I respect both. I I feel that it's a it's a it's good to have a healthy disagreement with it. I would say that we um clinically, we have been able to prevent animals from developing that poisoning or clinical signs. We've been able to prevent them from having to go into the clinic if necessary, you know, where as they wouldn't have. We've been able to do things with with dogs by recommending hydrogen peroxide. That being said, we we check every box. You know, with this, you know, the the animal needs to be the the kind of the right breed. It needs to be the timing needs to be right, the health of the animal needs to be right, the thing that they ingested needs to be right. So we would never just give hydrogen peroxide for the fun of it, but we really have to check the boxes. We would never give hydrogen peroxide in a cat, period. No, um, there's no indicate, there's no time where we would ever do that because they are very sensitive. They don't handle it very well. When we think about hydrogen peroxide, the way it works is it's a stomach irritant. It's going to irritate the wall of the stomach, and that's what causes that vomiting to happen. Cats, it it causes, it can cause some ulcerations and more and kind of worsening issues. It can happen in dogs. Um it's unlikely, it's less likely to occur if you give us use a specific dosing. Uh, we never want to give hydrogen peroxide until they vomit. And we definitely have had calls where people have said, I don't know, I just poured hydrogen peroxide down my dog and he didn't vomit. Those are ones that are concerning that are going to develop issues. So when I tell a pet parent about hydrogen peroxide, I would say never give it on your own. So give it under the direction of a veterinarian or a toxicology expert. And only, you know, they're gonna check the boxes and say, yes, your pet would probably benefit from that. There's a lot of times where we've gotten that call within five or 10 minutes, they've given hydrogen peroxide, whatever it is that they got into, has come right back up and we've we've saved the animal. Um there's times when inducing vomiting at home with hydrogen peroxide would not be ideal and they would need to go into the clinic. Um, I I have great respect for people who who don't, you know, who disagree and say it should never be given, and and that's okay. But I know that for us, out of the hundreds of thousands of millions of cases that we've managed, the number of animals who have had negative effects is extremely low in comparison with the number of animals that have benefited from it.

unknown: 37:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 37:56

And as a follow-up on that, so we've talked about charcoal, we've talked about hydrogen peroxide. Are there any items or tools that pet parents can have on hand at home to help even calling into Pet Poison Helpline, like that can help them better treat their pet if they're not able to get to a vet, like you were saying, if they're far away or you know, just to have on hand? Is there anything that you would recommend that they they keep at home?

SPEAKER_00: 38:24

Yeah, that's a tough question. For for cats, unfortunately, probably not. There's really nothing there unless they get into something that can cause corrosive issues or like ulcerations, burns, then certainly just using water to help to irrigate and flush or something in their eye. For dogs, really, that hydrogen peroxide that should be unexpired and you know, fresh is something that is probably good to have on hand. Um, obviously something to just just water and diluting, depending on what they get into. Sometimes, not very often, but there's a few things that we might recommend giving a little bit of milk to to help. I would also say if you're gonna have xylitol in the household, let's make sure that maybe you have uh carrow syrup or even pancake syrup or something like that, so that if the animal does get into it, you can give some type of a heavy glucose source or sugar source to help minimize that risk of that low blood pressure from occurring before you get them into the clinic.

SPEAKER_02: 39:31

And how much would honey work for that as well?

SPEAKER_00: 39:34

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 39:35

I was gonna say, how much what would you give of that to help counteract that? Like a tablespoon or something, or it just depends on the animal.

SPEAKER_00: 39:42

You know, it depends, yeah, it depends on the size of the dog. Depends on the size of the dog. A lot of times I'll say just kind of rub it on their gums, just you know, rub a little bit on their gums. Okay. If they're starting to show signs where they're wobbly and they're kind of losing their footing, then you know, try try to get a little bit more uh with them. That while you're en route to the clinic, I kind of say take that with you so that as things change, because xyliton does work so quickly.

SPEAKER_01: 40:08

I was gonna ask, would honey work as well, just in a pinch? Is that an option?

SPEAKER_00: 40:12

Yeah, so you could use honey. We typically say don't use honey in dogs that are like less than six months of age, and just there's always that bot botulism concern. So you could definitely use honey if you needed to, just a little bit along the gums. But kero syrup is probably the one that we say that reach for first if you have it. If you're if you're not in a household that bakes, and most people don't have karaokyrup around, so then I say grab the pancake syrup, or you know, even if you just tap some a little bit of sugar and you have nothing else that you can do, you know, just some of the granules of the sugar, just anything to try and help get some glucose absorbed to help with that.

SPEAKER_01: 40:53

Okay. Can you um talk a little bit more about the botulism? Sorry, I know that it was kind of a passing point, but I don't think that's it's something that most people know about.

SPEAKER_00: 41:02

So it might just be I yeah, I think there's, you know, when you think about infants, they recommend avoiding making sure that honey isn't used at a certain age just because they can be at a higher risk of that. And so I think we try to just give that same the we just kind of put that same concern over on the animals just to make sure that that isn't, you know, that they're old enough and their body's healthy enough that if there was any potential risk of contamination, that they would be able to take care of that.

SPEAKER_01: 41:30

So what I wanted to talk about next is actually kind of leaving the holidays and when in the clinic, I would love to hear your opinion on urine drug tests for animals that do get into illicit drugs, because that unfortunately happens pretty frequently on an emergency basis. What are the what is the validity? Because most of those tests are human urine drug tests. So are those tests sensitive enough that we should be using them or recommending them in our pets, or like what would you recommend for both pet parents and practitioners, actually?

SPEAKER_00: 42:06

Yeah, it's a great question. So I typically don't put a lot of weight into a urine drug test because there's a lot of times, there's a lot of different metabolites. So as that drug is being processed and worked through the body and metabolized through the body, there's different metabolites between humans and animals. And so those urine drug tests, they are validated on human urine and they're not validated on animal urine. And so you may have some false positives, you may have some false negatives. I generally say we're gonna treat the signs. You know, if it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it talks like a duck, we're gonna treat it as a duck. And um, we've certainly had calls where the urine drug test has been positive for, let's say, amphetamines or methamphetamine. And methamphetamine would give a really high um CNS or central nervous system stimulation. So these guys should be bouncing off the walls. They should have a really high heart rate, a high blood pressure, they should be extremely agitated. And this this guy is really subdued and he's dribbling urine and he's a toxic. And so we're gonna treat him for marijuana because that's what his signs most likely are from, versus um methamphetamine, where he's not showing any of those signs. So a lot of people use them if they're true, if they if the results are accurate, then it's great, but they're so unreliable that I typically say, let's just treat the, let's treat the signs. And that's where we all come down to it, anyways. When that dog gets into something at the park and they don't know what it is, and he starts to displaying these particular signs, we know enough about what's kind of out there and what things can cause those signs. So we're gonna we're gonna treat him symptomatically and supportively, really kind of regardless of what that test may say.

SPEAKER_01: 44:08

And then you actually gave me the perfect segue because the next thing I wanted to talk about was THC toxicity. So I know that obviously, so I to give you a little bit of background, I actually use cannabis quite a bit in my practice, obviously in a much different way. And so what I will often tell people is the reason that we see THC toxicity so much on an emergency basis is because these animals are getting into strains that have been developed for humans that are incredibly high THC. They're not being used in a proper therapeutic way. But I also have heard a lot of debate. I've heard a lot of veterinarians say that THC is lethal, that it actually can lead to death. At least for me, when I've looked at the research, there's actually no, so there's something called an LD50 or a lethal dose. There's no LD50 that's been found, at least for rats with THC. They haven't done the studies in dogs or cats, but I just wanted you, if you don't mind, kind of speaking to that and just you know any insight or opinion you have on that.

SPEAKER_00: 45:09

Yeah, you bet. So there is a lethal dose in dogs of three grams per kilogram, which is if you think about if you think about a traditional marijuana joint, that's a lot. Three grams for a like a 50-pound dog that's almost 23 kilograms. That's that's um many ounces and ounces of of this product. So unless you're maybe a drug dealer and the dog gets into it, probably not going to have that much around. And so it's rarely fatal. We do have, however, calls with some dogs that have been, they are just extremely negatively affected from it. And dogs have more receptors, more kind of those endocannabinoid receptors than humans do. And so they're much more sensitive than humans. And so um there's not really a good, what we call a toxic dose, or what amount do they have to get into before they see signs? It's very kind of individual, uh, very uh variable with each with each dog. So some dogs are far more sensitive, some are a little bit less, but any it any exposure to THC or a marijuana product is enough, potentially likely enough to cause some type of signs developing. And with that, you know, we used to have our most common calls were from the the plant products, so the traditional joint or the the buds that were there. And now we're seeing a lot more edibles, you know, edibles, gummies, you know, things that are you know, maybe they also have chocolate in them, maybe they also have xylitol in them, maybe they are mitts. And so there's a lot of different products that way that we're seeing uh animals getting into. And you bring up a good point as far as you know that the cannabis plant itself, decades ago, there was a much lower THC concentration. And now the THC concentration, I want to say it was maybe like 13%, 13, 14 back in like the 60s and 70s. And now the plants are having about a 30% or more concentration of THC. So that same amount has more THC in it. And then when you look about an edible, they can put in whatever kind of concentration they they want to. And so these guys are getting, you know, they're getting into this and they're getting significant signs. And the vast majority of dogs are going to be really lethargic and sedated. Now, a lot of people laugh and say, well, just we're just gonna let them sleep it off. But along with that, they could have a low blood pressure, they could have a low heart rate, they could have low body temperature. And if those things aren't addressed, then they can actually cause negative effects on other organs of the body. And so I typically recommend if an animal gets into THC is to go in and get an examination to see that everything's okay and decide at that point if they need to be on in the hospital for supportive care or if they can go home and just be monitored, because it's difficult for a pet parent to know what their blood pressure is or what their body temperature is and to treat those types of things. Then there are a small amount of dogs who will actually have the opposite occur and they will become really agitated and they'll have a high heart rate and a high blood pressure, and they'll need to actually be sedated. And so there's some dogs that um that work a little bit differently. Almost most of the dogs will dribble urine. And so when uh when you take a pet into the veterinarian and you don't want to tell them they got it to THC, but they're dribbling urine the entire way and they're having a hard time walking, and the cat's out of the bag. Uh so they got into THC no matter what you say. That's probably what happened. And um, so it's uh um but treatment of those is is usually something that can happen. And fatalities are are quite rare, but we surprisingly have had several really bad cases. And I if I remember right, I think they were, I can't remember if they were gummies or edibles that they got into. And they're just uh it was a really large amount. So I think with the as we see more and more of these gummies and edibles going out there, we're going to see animals become more and more affected.

SPEAKER_02: 49:27

But yeah, I've had I've had clients whose dogs picked up, you know, a joint on a walk and then like someone, you know, dropped their their weed um on you know out in the world. And when they've been walking there, I had a recently a client whose puppy got into somebody's on a walk and she had no idea what it was. Luckily, it was a case to just sleep it off. She she did take the dog into the vet just to figure out what it was, but it was super scary. And then she was like so frustrated that people, you know, just irresponsibly toss it around and where your animals can get into them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:03

Yeah. And as more and more states legalize marijuana, it's just become it's become more socially acceptable to discuss it. And our calls over the last five years compared to 2018, we had over a 700% increase in calls regarding marijuana. And I think it's a combination of one, it is more readily accessible, but two, it's more socially acceptable to say that their pet got into it. Whereas in the past, so when I was in practice, you you knew this dog had gotten into marijuana as it came into the clinic. You you knew it, and it was like pulling teeth to get them to come clean with it. And now, and now they just, you know, they'll they'll just say that it happened, even in states where it's not legal. So um it's uh it's interesting because of just the the differences in state requirements, but also in the differences in uses, as you said, you know, using it in different ways with cannabis and and um CBD is a big topic of discussion. And CBD in itself doesn't have you know those psychoactive effects. However, you have to be really careful to find pure CBD products, and there's really no good regulations at this point with CBD products, and so them they did some studies, was it a year or two ago, where they tested a lot of different CBD products, and they found most, if not all of them, also had THC in them as well. They weren't pure CBD, and that's where our pets can get into problems because when they say, gosh, they got into CBD, this shouldn't be an issue, but he's acting like he has marijuana poisoning, it's typically because it's not a pure product.

SPEAKER_01: 51:49

And then just out of curiosity, the cases where there is, you know, a unfortunately a lethal kind of result from the ingestion, is that normally because like with something like an opioid, like morphine, it's breathing depression. What does that look like for a fatal THC toxicity? Is that normally just the low blood pressure or low heart rate, just like systems down?

SPEAKER_00: 52:13

Or yeah, so this last one that we had, and I'm not sure if he did die, he was probably the closest to dying that I've that I've managed in a in quite a while. And he was um completely, you know, comatose, unresponsive, completely unresponsive. His body temperature was extremely low, even with efforts to get his body temperature up. He wasn't able to, they they weren't able to get his body temperature up to a healthy state. And his blood pressure was extremely low, and he was having heart arrhythmias as well. And he was not responding well to the to the therapy. He wasn't responding well to medications to increase his blood pressure or to stop the arrhythmias. And so he was in, um, he was in the clinic. I was, I think he was in the clinic when I talked with him, he was he was in there for maybe his second or third day. Most of these guys go home after 12 or 24 hours. So usually when they require hospitalization, it's not a prolonged period of time. But this guy was in, he was in a specialty practice, they had the means to do everything kind of necessary for him, and he just was not responding to to the therapy. And that unfortunately is something that can that can happen. Sometimes, you know, sometimes owners aren't able to financially um be able to do everything for their pet. And then other times we you can do everything for your pet, and it's still not it's still not be enough to save them.

SPEAKER_01: 53:44

Um, so garlic. I know this is hotly debated. So in the holistic community, there are people that recommend providing garlic as an option for natural parasite prevention under very strict recommendations of cut it up, wait about 10 or 15 minutes, and then offer it, and then there's guidelines. But I know as a conventional veterinarian, I was taught that garlic is toxic, period. It was very clear to me that there was not this room to be able to provide it in a certain kind of format or presentation. And I'm wondering if that comes back to us lumping it with onions, because that it seems like the toxicities for those two are actually more different than people discuss or believe. But I was wondering if you could talk about that because I know garlic has been a big topic, at least in social media, feeding garlic to dogs and cats.

SPEAKER_00: 54:41

Yeah, so um, so it's our understanding that the the mechanisms are fairly similar. It's the sulfur um changes that cause hemolysis to occur to the red blood cells. Dogs and cats are actually more sensitive to garlic than they are to onion. And so in my opinion, you know, it's it'll be the debate. Again, it's probably one of those things where you know, depending on what's um depending on what your experience is, what your, you know, if you've had good experience using it or not. So we know that there's an established toxic dose for onions and for garlic. And for um, they are extremely more sensitive than onions. And for a cat, just to kind of throw it out, it's like three to five grams per kilogram is is a toxic dose for cats. And that's a decent amount of garlic that has to be given in the fresh form. But if you were to take that and put that into a garlic powder where it's so much more sensitive, it's a very, very small amount that they would need. And we we don't have a lot of animals that get in into enough of the fresh onion, but some that do get into enough of the fresh of fresh garlic, but more so those that are getting into like our onion powders and garlic powders because it's so concentrated, um, those are often the ones where we're starting where we start to see the most severely affected from them. Um I I'm kind of of the school of knowing what that can cause in my pet. I typically would avoid it. But I think if you're staying again, the dose makes the poison. And if you're recommending an amount that's well below the toxic dose, is it necessarily problematic? Probably if you feed it on an everyday basis. Um, but if it's uh once here and there, and it it it may not be, you know, it may not be detrimental to them to have it as long as you're staying below that, well below that toxic dose. And I'm not sure how much they're using, you know, in the in the holistic world as far as an amount, you know, what kind of dosing they're using for that.

SPEAKER_01: 57:01

So kind of what spurred this for me was my own dog got into, she's 13, and she decided that she wanted to get into a bag of fertilizer that had been in our yard for two years. So I called Pet Poison Helpline. I stepped into a pet parent's shoes and I was freaking out. And I had the nicest toxicologist help me. And when I was talking to her, because I let her know I was a practitioner, she mentioned something that I thought was fascinating. So it was in regards to joint supplements and the issue with manganese toxicity. And I I had no idea, I would have never even thought of that. I mean, in general, whenever a pet eats too much of anything, I tell people just play it safe and call a poison hotline. But I was wondering if you could share, even just briefly, like any of the oddball toxicities that maybe are a little bit more um, we should be more aware of than we are. Because I would never have thought of joint supplements and that specific toxicity, but just anything that we normally are giving our pets. I know if they're eating too much, of course, there can be a toxic a toxic level, but just any of the ones that you've seen that maybe even took you by surprise or it would be nice for pet parents to just keep in mind.

SPEAKER_00: 58:16

Yeah, and I think some of them are still common ones that we get calls on. So the um like grapes and raisins. A lot of people don't know that grapes and raisins are problematic. When I was in practice, I had a client that that's the only way she gave her pet medication every single day was putting it through into a grape. And the dog did fine. And so it's um again, the dose makes the poison. There's individual sensitivities, but a lot of people don't aren't aware. But gosh, grapes are are healthy, raisins are healthy for us to eat. And so that's one that I think a lot of people don't know about. We talked about xylitol, that's one that a lot of people just aren't aware of when you because it makes sense to not be aware of it. When you think about all the other artificial sweeteners or sugar alcohols that are out there, xylitol is the only one we care about. It's the only one that is going to be problematic. And so that's something that I think is a so is a surprise to people. Um the onions and garlic, you know, you're bringing that up. Again, I think it's a surprise. A lot of people don't realize that that could be an issue. And then um I think pain medications. Pain medications are really a surprise to to pet parents. So we will get calls from pet parents who, again, with the best of intentions, have given ibuprofen or neproxen or some other type of human anti-inflammatory for their pet's pain. And then they they aren't really thinking about the dosing or the amount or the sensitivity of it. And then these guys are, you know, they're coming in and they've got stomach ulcerations and they're in kidney failure. And this is happening with pharmacists and human physicians and nurses and pet parents who. Who don't have a medical background because they they aren't they aren't expecting it to be such a difference between dogs and cats and humans. And so I think that's a really a big surprise for a lot of them.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:14

My last mini question, because you brought up grapes. Do we know the toxic component? Or like of what part of the grape it's in? Because I know for a while we didn't, but I've heard recently that perhaps there's more information that's available.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:28

Yeah, so there was a paper published uh last year that was potentially linking tartaric acid, uh, which is an ingredient in grapes and raisins, as being the component. There's a lot of research that needs to be done to be for us to be able to say that's what it is. If I remember correctly, the paper was um was comparing uh three cases. And so we kind of need a little bit more. And the paper stated, you know, we need more research before we can really say that's what it is. I think a lot of people have taken that paper and really run with it and say this is what the cause of it is. It might be, it very well might be, but um there's also a chance that we that it's coincidental and we still don't know what it is. We know that wine is usually not going to be an issue and grape juice is usually not going to be an issue. So things that have been kind of processed um aren't as big of a concern. But grapes and raisins, even you know, some people think if you raisin bread wouldn't be a concern because it's heated. The downside is that yes, if it is tartaric acid, heat can um heat can destabilize that, but we don't know what that temperature is. And so there's still a there's still a risk, even if it's you know, even if it's a baked product. So we usually, because the outcome is fatal, the outcome is irreversible kidney failure. We typically still treat them pretty uh pretty cautiously. So we have a campaign called Toxin Tails, and it's uh we send out a press release every month, and it's something that we use, it's an educational campaign to help uh pet parents become more aware of different toxins that are out there, as well as the veterinary community. And the good news about toxin tails is that they all have a happy ending. And so it's a great story if you want to feel good and kind of be excited about these animals that have had um, some of them maybe have had a near-death experience in the sense of being extremely ill. And some of them had just a close call where it they maybe they weren't as affected, but they were in the story was great and something to get out there, and it might be it might be something like xylitol, or we had a dog that ingested a Fitbit, and the owner identified uh figured out which dog got into it because she took each one of them for a trip around the block and found uh which one was still tracking because her Fitbit was still tracking on her app. I know it's not funny at all, but I just can't. But it's it it is, yeah. It's a great, it is a great story because he did well. He did have pests and have it removed, but but he did extremely well. So it's just little stories like that. And so we like to we like to highlight the the work that the veterinary clinics are doing to save these animals' lives on a daily basis and just to educate the pet owners and the in the public in general on different toxin concerns.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:32

That's fantastic. Um, all right. Well, thank you, Dr. Schmidt and Dr. Lindsay. I appreciate both of you today and have a wonderful holiday season. We're heading into the thick of it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:42

Yeah, thank you so much for your time and your expertise.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:45

Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you so much for the invitation. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Baroo Podcast, and a special thank you to Dr. Lindsay Went for being my co-host again today. If you suspect that your pet has gotten into something that they shouldn't have, you can call the Pet Poison Help line. It's 1-800-213-6680. You can also find the phone number in the show notes and a link to their website. And if you enjoyed the episode, please don't forget to rate and follow us for every listening podcast. And you can also follow on Instagram at BaruPodcast. And if you have a story of came and companionship that you'd like to share with me or a question, or even a comment, I would love to hear from you, you can email me, Charlotte at theBaru.com. All right, you guys, let's chat too.